chpettit19

I guess I don't get why you would want MadBum who is clearly on the decline over someone who is trending upwards. Why take on the extra risk of him having to turn it around over the other 2 just maintaining? Not to mention MadBum away from SF was a complete and utter disaster. I will be legitimately surprised if he thrives in a much more hitter friendly park in AZ. I don't think there are drastic differences (other than MadBum who I think is finished) between this group as they all have their warts (thus being second tier type pitchers).

Odo had a draft pick attached to him. Keuchel is one of the guys who are supposedly better than him cuz he got a bigger deal, but he had to wait until after the draft to sign last year cuz of that pick being attached. Pineda is suspended for part of the year after having pitched only part of last year and missing the whole previous season with TJ surgery. The Twins know him better than anyone else so were able to approach that situation with more knowledge thus making them more willing to take on risk with him as they had a better idea of what his risk was. So, yes, in his case they do know more than the other GMs and organizations. Just like the Giants know more about MadBum and weren't willing to pay him and the Dodgers know more about Ryu and weren't willing to pay him. And I said they are all in the same tier, not that our boys are BETTER. If Odo was a straight up free agent he would have been right in the mix with Wheeler, MadBum, and Ryu contract wise. He had a different situation because of the QO.

What's your point? That the Twins were able to sign 2 guys in the same tier as Wheeler, Bumgarner, and Ryu for way less? That makes them bad or what? Odo is a different case as he had the pick attached to him and decided another year like last year puts him in place to get 100 mil instead of 75 mil. You seem to be mistaking more money with better production.

Wow is that misleading. It took everyone else multiple months to get their deals but he was supposed to have gotten 100 mil in 10 days? Come on. Not to mention that the last 2 off seasons have shown how brutal it can be to get a good deal if you have a draft pick attached to you. Dallas Keuchel would like to talk to you about how easy it is to sign a deal in 10 days after receiving a QO.

Not in the playoffs. And as my post clearly stated I was referring to the nashing of teeth over how the Twins can't compete in the postseason with these arms. Most teams run 3.5 starters in the postseason depending on how many games they play in each series. The Twins have 3 guys in line with what people wanted to see signed as "impact pitching." So they have 3 impact arms and people are concerned that the 4th guy who likely makes 2 starts in the postseason is what is holding them back. They need another arm, again, as I stated in that post, but people are acting like the trio currently sitting at the top isn't good enough to be considered "impact pitching." If that is the case then the only 2 FA who were that good were Cole and Strasburg and those aren't guys the Twins will ever sign. They are looking to add another veteran and will use the 5th spot to give the young guys a shot. Much like the system the Indians use as they develop the best young rotation in baseball and which was designed by the current president of baseball operations in MN. So, yes, there are 5 rotation spots on most MLB teams during the regular season. There are also many teams who use a "bullpen day" but I won't even get into that. You chose to ignore the entire premise of my post (that fans are upset because they aren't signing "impact pitching" to win in the playoffs) and their definition of "impact pitching" is the level of the 3 current starters. Not to mention 2 of those arms were free agent signings that everyone wants to discount because they pitched here last year. Grass isn't always greener...

Pitcher A I assume is MadBum as he's on a pretty defined decline. Either way he'd be my last choice as that guy looks to be league average this year followed by below average years unless you think he suddenly turns it around as he hits his 30s. I'd obviously want player E if all things are equal and they're pitching the same number of innings as the other guys. My guess is that's Ryu and those are some impressive numbers. If player A really is MadBum I'm even happier we didn't sign him. If he's one of our guys I'm glad we don't have them locked up for long term deals. I think Pitcher A is clearly the worst moving forward while B-D are similar and E certainly stands out.

That is fair. I think the CWS improvement is overstated as much of their improvement is also reliant on untested rookies or 2nd year guys who will need to show they can adjust to the league's adjustments to them. I am still hoping to see some improvements to the Twins and would love to see a Donaldson deal get done (not holding my breath, though). Much of the complaining on here is about how they need to improve for October, though. And that is where I start to get confused on people on here saying we're screwed with the 3 guys we have and that's why we need to bring in a 4th guy equal to or below their level to really give us a shot. I want to see the team improve as I agree that they're a couple bad breaks or declines in production away from not making the playoffs, but that isn't the argument many on here are making.

They were interested to an extent, not the "do whatever it takes even if it means overpaying" extent that many fans on here wanted them to be. As others have stated they present an upgrade over our batch of unproven rookies, but many fans on here act like they are drastically better than the 3 veteran starters set to front the rotation right now. The FO never said they view these guys as anything other than veteran arms to stabilize a rotation. I think you could argue that they saw Wheeler as possibly more and that is why they were willing to go more years and money for him, but fans on here act like Ryu and MadBum were worth spending whatever was needed because they present some imagined upgrade on the 3 arms we already have and without signing them there is no chance to win in the playoffs. My argument is that they are nice depth pieces to extend the number of arms this year, but not guys who jump to the front of the rotation and are thus worth spending endlessly on.

Pineda and Odo WERE FREE AGENT PITCHERS. I don't know why you ignore that fact. They had the choice to go wherever they wanted and chose to come back here. And my statement about not improving was about not improving the "impact pitching" everyone, including you, say they need in order to win in October. The Twins are not planning to use any rookies in their October rotation unless one of them blows up and becomes a stud. They are planning to use Berrios, Odo, Pineda, and free agent/trade target X that haven't been signed yet. My point is that if you don't think they can win with those 3 guys then you shouldn't be mad that they didn't sign any of the other second tier starters because they are the same or worse as those 3.

I didn't say MadBum was going to be bad because he was 30. I said I don't care what he did in the postseason when he was 26 if he is now 30 because he's a totally different pitcher now. If you're willing to pay someone based on what they did 4 years ago over what they did in the 4 years since, cool. I'm not. He has not been the elite pitcher he was in those post seasons since. His ERA away from home last year was 5.29 with an OPS+ against 118 and slugging against of .504. So if you prefer to go by his post season stats when he was 26 over his full season stats last year then by all means be mad we didn't pay him, but I'm not in that boat.

Graterol might be if he puts it all together, but most likely, no. Are the rookies on this roster the only options the Twins have left? Even on the FA market? Does one of them starting game 4 of a playoff series equal "impact pitching" to you? Cuz I don't believe either of them will be better than our top 3 guys. I just don't see how you can say those 2 give us a chance to win in October, but the 3 guys in house with equal or better stats don't. You positive MadBum is any good away from SF? His splits certainly say he's a below average pitcher when not throwing in that pitcher friendly park. You willing to bet 4 years on that? Whether you like it or not that bet likely includes having him for 4 years while losing Odo next year. That the bet you want to make to improve on the rookies this year?

MadBum won in the playoffs when he was 20, 22, 24, and 26, he's going to be 30 this year. I don't care about his age 26 season 4 years later. Ryu has pitched 4.2, 126.2, 82.1, and182.2 innings the last 4 years after having missed all of 2015 and is going to be 33 this year. You think he'll start holding up better as he gets older? I don't think they represent any improvement moving forward. And if improving on our #4 starter is your definition of "impact pitching" then I guess we strongly disagree on that definition.

All of the frustration about the lack of big name starters being signed seems to be because they got swept out of the playoffs by the Yankees again. According to Fangraphs the Twins had the 7th best rotation in all of baseball last year and the 3rd best bullpen. No Pineda really changed the look of this team come October and I fully believe in the idea that you can never have too much pitching, but it seems to me like people are acting like Berrios, Odo, and Pineda were the top 3 guys in some bottom 5 rotation or something. People are freaking out cuz they didn't sign Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu who were all basically the same as Berrios and Odo (Pineda too, but his suspension makes me mad so I don't want to include him) last year and acting like bringing back Odo is just nothing and we're screwed if him or Berrios are our number 1 cuz we need one of these other guys who are the same to be the #1 instead. I absolutely agree we need another arm, especially while Pineda is out, but to act like Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu are this fabled "impact pitching" we need, but Berrios and Odo aren't impact is ridiculous to me. They're all the same "impact" and Berrios is the youngest of the group with Odo just 2 months older than Wheeler. Not to mention the fact that the offense scored 7 runs in 3 games against the Yankees so I'm not quite sure why you aren't all lambasting the FO about not bringing in "impact hitting" since your argument is that without severe increase in talent there is a 0% chance we get passed the Yankees ever. 2 runs a game would seem to be a sign that this team is severly lacking in offensive talent when it comes to October as well. Injuries (Arraez, although he hit well, and Kepler, who didn't look like himself at all) and suspension dramatically changed this team come playoff time. I want to see another arm brought in, but lets not rewrite history and start acting like we have no arms in our rotation. If you believe any of those 2nd tier FA were "impact pitching" then you think we have 2 "impact pitchers." If you don't think Berrios and Odo are good enough to get by in the playoffs then you don't think any of those 3 are either. You're just confusing spending more money with getting better players. I would have enjoyed another player on that level to add to the depth of arms, but missing on them isn't the same as missing on Cole or Strasburg. At this point I'd rather see us extend Berrios and Odo for the money we would have given to older guys or Wheeler. We know those 2 much more intimately than any of the FA arms so we have a much better idea on how they fit in the clubhouse and how they work with our coaches.

I was not the one who brought up the Brewers, White Sox, or any other teams in this thread. I simply responded to others who said that they were making moves the Twins refuse to and I disputed that claim. And I have continued to speak to the lack of notable differences in process outside of 2 moves. I can bring up the Brewers continuing to bring in AAAA players and veterans on 1 or 2 year deals in the last week if anyone would like more evidence that outside of a very limited number of outlier moves the teams operate almost identically. Every team wishes their team traded for a high BA, low power guy who then turned into a high BA, high power MVP candidate. That is not a difference in operating procedure, but instead a trade that turned out way better than anyone could or would have predicted. So the only real difference is the Cain deal and fans here in Milwaukee complain about it almost as much as Twins fans complain about them not signing similar deals. I will, however, tone down the comments about spending "stupid" money as that is not necessary and I apologize. In my opinion signing 30+ year old pitchers to 5 year deals is not a way for the Twins to build and maintain a consistently good to great team and I do stand by that. The idea that we should "do whatever it takes" has been brought up on this thread, though, and that would include things like trading whatever prospects the Blue Jays and Mets were asking for at the deadline and paying any FA price to sign big name pitchers.

So what were their big moves since your arbitrary pick of 2011? Trade for Yelich, signing Cain, and signing Grandal? I am struggling to see where they drastically differ from the Twins in their team building. I already addressed those 3 moves. Yelich more than doubled his HR rate after the trade and has turned that into the best trade of the decade. I'm ok with you being upset the Twins didn't make a similar trade, but it's also unrealistic to expect trades to go that way. Cain is a bad contract. Nobody would give him that deal on the market today. He is aging very quickly (I live in Milwaukee so I hear the complaints about his bat constantly). If a gold glove is what you're looking for in your biggest signing I can promise you you're not winning any WS cuz of that signing. And Grandal is the exact sort of contract the Twins continue to try to sign and you complain about. You act like the Brewers are going out and signing Cole and Strasburg deals or something. They're not. They are operating exactly as the Twins are. And you didn't say you want ALCS trips, you said you want WS rings. And these "big moves" you claim the Brewers are making haven't gotten them any of those and they are about to be priced out of their core and have to start trading guys. So, again, why do you want to be the Brewers? They're the Twins with slightly more success recently, but still no real WS threat despite having a top 5 overall player on their roster for insanely cheap. I don't mind you, or anyone else, being frustrated. Just want people to look at it realistically and quit acting like the Twins are doing drastically less than they should be doing and throwing out teams like the Brewers as teams who do things drastically different and claim it's leading to these magical WS runs the Twins could be on if they'd just spend stupid money or throw prospects away at random. Things haven't worked out how any of us want and it bums me out too, but I certainly prefer a constant threat to make the playoffs over the last decade of completely unwatchable baseball.

I don't see the leg kick as a huge hurdle as there are plenty of guys in MLB who have one. I mean Mike Trout gets his leg pretty high up there. The stride is where my concerns come in. If the leg kick is his timing mechanism then let him kick, but I think a shorter stride will help him maintain more consistent at bats. I am not advocating that the coaches bring him in and force him to change anything, but it's something I'd keep an eye on while giving him the chance to adjust. By all reports he's an incredibly hard worker and I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back a little more "controlled" next year. Someone mentioned Javy Baez as a guy with a big leg kick and I think he's a good example of a guy who learned as he moved up that a little more control in his swing helped him produce more consistently. Royce has some pretty good lightening in those wrists and he'll make adjustments as he goes and let his athleticism take him where he wants to go.

How many World Series have those moves gotten the Brewers to let alone how many have they won? Lorenzo Cain's deal is terrible and limiting their ability to make moves. They signed Grandal to a 1 year deal which is exactly the kind of move the Twins have been trying to do and you complain about. The Yelich trade has been fantastic, but he was a 15-20 HR guy before that trade and nobody expected him to suddenly be a 40 HR guy. The Sabathia trade got them a first round playoff exit. You know, like the Twins always have. So basically you want the Twins to have the same results, but get there in a different way and raise their risk going 80-82, 77-85, 96-66, 83-79, 74-88, 82-80, 68-94, 73-89 in the next 8 seasons. The Sabathia trade was so great and got them a 3-1 first round exit followed by 1 playoff appearance in the next 8 seasons while only finishing above 3rd place in their own division that 1 time in 8 years. You just want splashy moves for guys whos names you know cuz it makes you feel like they have a better chance of winning in 1 specific season. And that's fine. But don't pretend the Brewers are anymore likely to win a World Series than the Twins. They have one of the 5 best players on the planet on a super team friendly deal and are still no better than the Twins.

So have the Dodgers.

They didn't diddle around. They threw a huge contract at Wheeler. They've had trade talks with multiple teams. They've been talking to Ryu, Kuechel, and Donaldson's agents. They did their due diligence and tried to see if they could convince him. People will take their money, but the idea that it's smart to spend stupid money will never make sense. If somebody gets similar money to play in a place they want to be they will go there. The Twins paying more than they should to get players is a real good way to be the Tigers. Whole bunch of big name old dudes getting paid a ton and winning very little.

Are the white sox and tigers your goal for the Twins? You want to be the Tigers right now? I mean they signed some real big contracts and that's fun right? Its fun to have a future hall of famer on your team while you lose 100 games. They aren't winning world series either. The Twins can play in FA in a smart way. They can't afford to have bad contracts. They can't afford to have the last 2 or 3 years of a deal be terrible. Not if they want to compete on a regular basis. If you just want the next 2 years to be all or nothing and are then ok with them losing the majority of their homegrown talent and being really bad again ok. But my guess is you'd then be complaining that the Twins never spend to keep their homegrown guys. There's a budget that they have to stay in. It's easy to spend other people's money, but the fact of the matter is the FO has been given a budget and need to stay within it. Blowing up future budgets for a 1 or 2 year run is a real bold move.

Who said anything about his family? He is a human being with free will in a free market. He gets to choose where he wants to go. I'm sure the Twins made the same sort of pitch to him, but he wanted to stay on the west coast and in the national league. If you're offered a job in or around the place you want to live that meets your desired job description do you pass it up for a similar job that doesn't quite fit your desired job description and is in a place you have no desire to live for an extra 15-20% in pay? I'd guess not and I'd guess most people wouldn't.

Every reporter out there reported that he wanted to stay on the West Coast and in the National League. His camp disputed it in an attempt to raise his price. It clearly didn't work that well as he stayed on the west coast and in the National League for less than people expected. He didn't want to be here.

Not when you're a multimillionaire already. Is that your sales pitch to MadBum? You don't want to be here, but sometimes you have to do crappy things you don't want to do so we'll see you in MN this year. Sounds effective.

It's what has been leaked by every media member across the country.

I don't think 5 years 100 would have gotten it done. It's less than a 20% raise. Would you move across the country to a place you don't want to be for a job that doesn't really cover your desired job description for an extra 20% bump in pay? I sure wouldn't.