chpettit19

Correct. Have to be on your team for the entire season to qualify. So in season acquisitions can't be offered QO.

Indians 2016 draft picks to reach majors as solid or better starting pitchers: Civale- pick #92 Bieber- pick #122 Plesac- pick #362 Those are 3rd, 4th, and 12th round picks. Don't need to use 1st round picks on pitching necessarily. Not saying they shouldn't, just that the Indians aren't just loading up on 1st round pitching.

"Letting all the FA options go" is where you completely lose me. That isn't how this works. What would you have done different? Offer MadBum 5, 150? Ryu 4, 120? Wheeler 6, 200? Sign Cole to 400+ mil? Strasburg for 400? They aren't shopping at the store and just taking whatever items they want while leaving the others. They didn't "let them go," they set what they felt was an acceptable deal on the table and the players chose where they wanted to go. Spending drastically more than anyone else is willing to is not a good team building strategy. Full stop. And I've never argued they should go into 2020 with a 3 deep rotation. I have continually said they need to add. I am just not broken up over not overpaying for 2 guys who went to the places they wanted to be (1 of which I think is washed up) or a guy who has pitched 2 complete seasons his entire career. Falvey was one of the top developers of the Indians pitching system and I am willing to give him a shot at turning our young arms into legit starters. I want 1 spot available for them to rotate through and get experience until 1 of them takes it and runs with it. That leaves 1 more spot to fill in the rotation and I would like to see if they can get Price for nothing while taking on a decent chunk of his only 3 years remaining. Or go get Ray for what I think would be less than any of our top 5 prospects. Or Matz or whatever other guy they can get for a reasonable trade price. Or add a couple of the bounce back options and let them battle it out while Pineda is suspended.

I've already spoken to the injuries and suspensions drastically changing this team in October. If it had been Pineda I don't think there would be quite as much anger right now. Dobnak starting seems to have even convinced fans that 7 runs in 3 games was enough for us to have won if only we had MadBum! Or whatever other pitcher we haven't signed. Ryu has been great more often than not when he actually pitches. Problem is he doesn't actually pitch very often. And that is a problem.

It has been widely reported nationally and locally that Wheeler wanted to be in Philly cuz his fiancé is from there and wanted to be close to her family and that MadBum wanted to be in AZ. In fact both of them said as much publicly. Its been nationally reported that AZ didn't even call MadBum, but he actually went to them and said "if you can get close to what I want I'll come here" and they adjusted their plans.

I think him and his agent knew he wouldn't get similar to those 3 because he had a draft pick attached to him the second the Twins put that QO out there. And as the last 2 offseason have shown that drastically limits your negotiating powers in contract situations. Need an example? Keuchel and Kimbrel just last year. Be as skeptical as you want, but you are either ignoring what the QO offer does to a player's value or just don't quite understand that he was in a very different situation to those 3.

deGrom was a free agent this year? Must have missed that. Or him being mentioned in trade rumors. I assume you're actually talking about Ryu, but he didn't win the 2019 (or any other year) NL CY Award. And, yes, I am hanging my hat on the fact that a guy on the IL is not better than someone not on the IL. Would he have been a nice get on a 2 or 3 year deal? Sure. Do I think he'll magically put together 4 uninjured years after having 1 in the last 6 while now turning 33? No. And there is no logical reason why anyone would. Thus he is in the 2nd tier of pitchers, just like the 3 the Twins have, and not in the top tier with Cole and Strasburg. And you can't even make the argument that other MLB teams don't agree cuz he signed right in line with the 2nd tier guys and for a contract similar to what Odo will likely get next year.

I guess I don't get why you would want MadBum who is clearly on the decline over someone who is trending upwards. Why take on the extra risk of him having to turn it around over the other 2 just maintaining? Not to mention MadBum away from SF was a complete and utter disaster. I will be legitimately surprised if he thrives in a much more hitter friendly park in AZ. I don't think there are drastic differences (other than MadBum who I think is finished) between this group as they all have their warts (thus being second tier type pitchers).

Odo had a draft pick attached to him. Keuchel is one of the guys who are supposedly better than him cuz he got a bigger deal, but he had to wait until after the draft to sign last year cuz of that pick being attached. Pineda is suspended for part of the year after having pitched only part of last year and missing the whole previous season with TJ surgery. The Twins know him better than anyone else so were able to approach that situation with more knowledge thus making them more willing to take on risk with him as they had a better idea of what his risk was. So, yes, in his case they do know more than the other GMs and organizations. Just like the Giants know more about MadBum and weren't willing to pay him and the Dodgers know more about Ryu and weren't willing to pay him. And I said they are all in the same tier, not that our boys are BETTER. If Odo was a straight up free agent he would have been right in the mix with Wheeler, MadBum, and Ryu contract wise. He had a different situation because of the QO.

What's your point? That the Twins were able to sign 2 guys in the same tier as Wheeler, Bumgarner, and Ryu for way less? That makes them bad or what? Odo is a different case as he had the pick attached to him and decided another year like last year puts him in place to get 100 mil instead of 75 mil. You seem to be mistaking more money with better production.

Wow is that misleading. It took everyone else multiple months to get their deals but he was supposed to have gotten 100 mil in 10 days? Come on. Not to mention that the last 2 off seasons have shown how brutal it can be to get a good deal if you have a draft pick attached to you. Dallas Keuchel would like to talk to you about how easy it is to sign a deal in 10 days after receiving a QO.

Not in the playoffs. And as my post clearly stated I was referring to the nashing of teeth over how the Twins can't compete in the postseason with these arms. Most teams run 3.5 starters in the postseason depending on how many games they play in each series. The Twins have 3 guys in line with what people wanted to see signed as "impact pitching." So they have 3 impact arms and people are concerned that the 4th guy who likely makes 2 starts in the postseason is what is holding them back. They need another arm, again, as I stated in that post, but people are acting like the trio currently sitting at the top isn't good enough to be considered "impact pitching." If that is the case then the only 2 FA who were that good were Cole and Strasburg and those aren't guys the Twins will ever sign. They are looking to add another veteran and will use the 5th spot to give the young guys a shot. Much like the system the Indians use as they develop the best young rotation in baseball and which was designed by the current president of baseball operations in MN. So, yes, there are 5 rotation spots on most MLB teams during the regular season. There are also many teams who use a "bullpen day" but I won't even get into that. You chose to ignore the entire premise of my post (that fans are upset because they aren't signing "impact pitching" to win in the playoffs) and their definition of "impact pitching" is the level of the 3 current starters. Not to mention 2 of those arms were free agent signings that everyone wants to discount because they pitched here last year. Grass isn't always greener...

Pitcher A I assume is MadBum as he's on a pretty defined decline. Either way he'd be my last choice as that guy looks to be league average this year followed by below average years unless you think he suddenly turns it around as he hits his 30s. I'd obviously want player E if all things are equal and they're pitching the same number of innings as the other guys. My guess is that's Ryu and those are some impressive numbers. If player A really is MadBum I'm even happier we didn't sign him. If he's one of our guys I'm glad we don't have them locked up for long term deals. I think Pitcher A is clearly the worst moving forward while B-D are similar and E certainly stands out.

That is fair. I think the CWS improvement is overstated as much of their improvement is also reliant on untested rookies or 2nd year guys who will need to show they can adjust to the league's adjustments to them. I am still hoping to see some improvements to the Twins and would love to see a Donaldson deal get done (not holding my breath, though). Much of the complaining on here is about how they need to improve for October, though. And that is where I start to get confused on people on here saying we're screwed with the 3 guys we have and that's why we need to bring in a 4th guy equal to or below their level to really give us a shot. I want to see the team improve as I agree that they're a couple bad breaks or declines in production away from not making the playoffs, but that isn't the argument many on here are making.

They were interested to an extent, not the "do whatever it takes even if it means overpaying" extent that many fans on here wanted them to be. As others have stated they present an upgrade over our batch of unproven rookies, but many fans on here act like they are drastically better than the 3 veteran starters set to front the rotation right now. The FO never said they view these guys as anything other than veteran arms to stabilize a rotation. I think you could argue that they saw Wheeler as possibly more and that is why they were willing to go more years and money for him, but fans on here act like Ryu and MadBum were worth spending whatever was needed because they present some imagined upgrade on the 3 arms we already have and without signing them there is no chance to win in the playoffs. My argument is that they are nice depth pieces to extend the number of arms this year, but not guys who jump to the front of the rotation and are thus worth spending endlessly on.

Pineda and Odo WERE FREE AGENT PITCHERS. I don't know why you ignore that fact. They had the choice to go wherever they wanted and chose to come back here. And my statement about not improving was about not improving the "impact pitching" everyone, including you, say they need in order to win in October. The Twins are not planning to use any rookies in their October rotation unless one of them blows up and becomes a stud. They are planning to use Berrios, Odo, Pineda, and free agent/trade target X that haven't been signed yet. My point is that if you don't think they can win with those 3 guys then you shouldn't be mad that they didn't sign any of the other second tier starters because they are the same or worse as those 3.

I didn't say MadBum was going to be bad because he was 30. I said I don't care what he did in the postseason when he was 26 if he is now 30 because he's a totally different pitcher now. If you're willing to pay someone based on what they did 4 years ago over what they did in the 4 years since, cool. I'm not. He has not been the elite pitcher he was in those post seasons since. His ERA away from home last year was 5.29 with an OPS+ against 118 and slugging against of .504. So if you prefer to go by his post season stats when he was 26 over his full season stats last year then by all means be mad we didn't pay him, but I'm not in that boat.

Graterol might be if he puts it all together, but most likely, no. Are the rookies on this roster the only options the Twins have left? Even on the FA market? Does one of them starting game 4 of a playoff series equal "impact pitching" to you? Cuz I don't believe either of them will be better than our top 3 guys. I just don't see how you can say those 2 give us a chance to win in October, but the 3 guys in house with equal or better stats don't. You positive MadBum is any good away from SF? His splits certainly say he's a below average pitcher when not throwing in that pitcher friendly park. You willing to bet 4 years on that? Whether you like it or not that bet likely includes having him for 4 years while losing Odo next year. That the bet you want to make to improve on the rookies this year?

MadBum won in the playoffs when he was 20, 22, 24, and 26, he's going to be 30 this year. I don't care about his age 26 season 4 years later. Ryu has pitched 4.2, 126.2, 82.1, and182.2 innings the last 4 years after having missed all of 2015 and is going to be 33 this year. You think he'll start holding up better as he gets older? I don't think they represent any improvement moving forward. And if improving on our #4 starter is your definition of "impact pitching" then I guess we strongly disagree on that definition.

All of the frustration about the lack of big name starters being signed seems to be because they got swept out of the playoffs by the Yankees again. According to Fangraphs the Twins had the 7th best rotation in all of baseball last year and the 3rd best bullpen. No Pineda really changed the look of this team come October and I fully believe in the idea that you can never have too much pitching, but it seems to me like people are acting like Berrios, Odo, and Pineda were the top 3 guys in some bottom 5 rotation or something. People are freaking out cuz they didn't sign Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu who were all basically the same as Berrios and Odo (Pineda too, but his suspension makes me mad so I don't want to include him) last year and acting like bringing back Odo is just nothing and we're screwed if him or Berrios are our number 1 cuz we need one of these other guys who are the same to be the #1 instead. I absolutely agree we need another arm, especially while Pineda is out, but to act like Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu are this fabled "impact pitching" we need, but Berrios and Odo aren't impact is ridiculous to me. They're all the same "impact" and Berrios is the youngest of the group with Odo just 2 months older than Wheeler. Not to mention the fact that the offense scored 7 runs in 3 games against the Yankees so I'm not quite sure why you aren't all lambasting the FO about not bringing in "impact hitting" since your argument is that without severe increase in talent there is a 0% chance we get passed the Yankees ever. 2 runs a game would seem to be a sign that this team is severly lacking in offensive talent when it comes to October as well. Injuries (Arraez, although he hit well, and Kepler, who didn't look like himself at all) and suspension dramatically changed this team come playoff time. I want to see another arm brought in, but lets not rewrite history and start acting like we have no arms in our rotation. If you believe any of those 2nd tier FA were "impact pitching" then you think we have 2 "impact pitchers." If you don't think Berrios and Odo are good enough to get by in the playoffs then you don't think any of those 3 are either. You're just confusing spending more money with getting better players. I would have enjoyed another player on that level to add to the depth of arms, but missing on them isn't the same as missing on Cole or Strasburg. At this point I'd rather see us extend Berrios and Odo for the money we would have given to older guys or Wheeler. We know those 2 much more intimately than any of the FA arms so we have a much better idea on how they fit in the clubhouse and how they work with our coaches.

I don't see the leg kick as a huge hurdle as there are plenty of guys in MLB who have one. I mean Mike Trout gets his leg pretty high up there. The stride is where my concerns come in. If the leg kick is his timing mechanism then let him kick, but I think a shorter stride will help him maintain more consistent at bats. I am not advocating that the coaches bring him in and force him to change anything, but it's something I'd keep an eye on while giving him the chance to adjust. By all reports he's an incredibly hard worker and I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back a little more "controlled" next year. Someone mentioned Javy Baez as a guy with a big leg kick and I think he's a good example of a guy who learned as he moved up that a little more control in his swing helped him produce more consistently. Royce has some pretty good lightening in those wrists and he'll make adjustments as he goes and let his athleticism take him where he wants to go.

The idea of Price and Benintendi would intrigue me greatly if I were the Twins FO. There's already talk of them moving Rosario, and plugging Benintendi into left field to replace him would be great for our short term outlook. If Eddie and some prospects bring back some solid pitching our rotation is set. Then once Kiriloff, Larnach, or whoever is ready we can move Benintendi for an even better return than Eddie brings. I kind of like this idea.

What about winning % and playoff appearances? I have no idea, just feel like MLB probably has a larger discrepancy there. I mean the Marlins have won a couple of championships over the last 20 years, but they have also been the worst team in baseball for half of the last 20 years (I didn't actually look up their records, just speaking generally). The goal is always a championship, but in MLB there are 3 or 4 teams (NYY, Boston, LAD, LAA) who have championship or bust expectations every year because they can lap the field in spending. In the other 3 sports windows open and close and teams have championship or bust expectations for short periods (Golden State for example), but the cap typically makes that a cyclical thing (Patriots are really screwing up the NFL these days). Boston, NYY, LAA, and LAD will always be able to say their season is a failure if they don't win a championship, but never have to risk blowing it up to try again (like Miami or KC or soon Cleveland) after they make a run because of the difference in their resources. With the data and analytics surge those 4 teams should be expected to have championship or bust expectations every year as they are now able to do Cole signings while being better at avoiding Ellsbury signings. With all the teams understanding what it takes to win at a much deeper level now the ability to go get the elite guys while also building strong farm systems to supplement those signings only a select few teams can make there is no excuse for them not dominating every year. My fear, and then hope, is that this gets out of control in the next decade and the other 26 teams do something to even the playing field a little. And, yes, I realize the Angels have been garbage lately, but they are now getting out from under their bad deals and are poised to jump right back into the fight. Can you imagine what signing Trout to that deal would do to the Twins, Rays, As, Os, Indians, etc. etc. etc. rosters? The Twins would be holding tryouts for Twins Daily posters to make the team cuz they couldn't afford any real players. With the knowledge gap shrinking so drastically in MLB the extra money is going to mean more and more.

My question is if people understand that free agency isn't like a store. The Twins can't just walk in and say "Oh, Wheeler costs $118 mil over 5 years, we'll take him!" and then he's theirs. As a number of people have pointed out on this thread and others, the White Sox offered a better deal than that and he turned them down. The FO isn't just shopping for objects that fit into their plan, they're trying to convince human beings that they should come play here for the same amount of money they would go somewhere else to play. Could they have thrown 5 years 130 at Wheeler and maybe convinced his wife that extra 12 mil was worth not living where she wanted to? Maybe, maybe not. A lot of it is also just people's views on what a World Series is worth. I would hate being a Marlins fan. I have hated the last decade of unwatchable baseball out of the Twins. Overspending (which is not a good thing in any situation, thus the "over" part of the word) to get a pitcher because we think it gets us closer to the WS this year, but ruins our chances of sustaining success is not something I'm interested in. The Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Astros all won the same number of World Series this year as the Twins did and they all spent a ton on big name guys. Give me competitive baseball every year over 1 World Series followed by 10 years of garbage. It sure was cool overspending on our hometown hero to show that the FO was serious about winning. I mean all those rings Mauer brought home weighing his hands down must have been why he struggled to hit for power. I think this FO is doing a great job. Not perfect, but definitely hard to complain. They have a budget whether you like it or not. They don't set the budget, they just work within it. They have offered $100+mil contracts. They tried to go get Kimbrel and he was pretty clear he didn't want to play here. Should they have thrown an extra 50 mil at him to convince him to come here so fans believe they're actually trying? I mean his absolutely horrid season wouldn't matter as long as we paid somebody a ton of money, right? So like Mackey said, do you really think they have their PR department set up to just send out fake info of offers they didn't really make in order to look like they're trying or are you refusing to accept that free agency isn't just offering the same contract the "winning" team did and the guy would have been yours instead? If missing out on MadBum, Ryu, Keuchel, et al means we're able to extend Buxton, Sano, and Berrios are you happy or sad? If signing one of them means we can't extend one or more of them are you happy or sad? There's give and take. A 5 year MadBum deal makes it real hard to extend all 3 of those guys and maintain the deep team you need to be successful in a 162 game season.

They'll be trying to fix his fastball (which they did wonders with for a number of guys in the pen this year) between now and spring training. Then he'll get to audition for a pen spot during the spring. If they are convinced he can't be fixed they cut him loose without any loss. Smart move to take a flyer on a guy with 1 plus pitch already and see if you can fix 1 other pitch and now you've got a viable bullpen arm for nothing.