Major League Ready

Hallelujah. Isn’t that what the previous regime did for years? Refuse to acknowledge where they stood and refuse to rebuild. Isn’t that the root cause of much of the angst towards the organization? Nobody wants to wait, especially after several bad years but this team is not contending even for a wildcard spot until the young core grows up. This team is a long way from contention and to build from a perspective of maybe we can get a wildcard spot is a foolish. Even if you get a wildcard spot it becomes a 50/50 chance you actually play a playoff series.

It appears several of the top draft prospects are college SPs. Who among them like the could be the front of rotation guy we need so badly? That would be a decent consolation prize for this horrible season. You would think an elite college pitcher could be up by the middle of 2018.

Arcia vs Quentin is a simplistic view. Keeping Quentin would have not only made it very difficult to give Arcia a shot, it would have taken ABS from either Kepler or Rosario. They also would not have signed Grossman. He might not have a high ceiling but he can be a role player going forward. From a broader perspective, keeping Quentin had a number of potential detrimental effects. Therefore, from a broad perspective, short-term thinking that in all likelihood hurts the team long-term. Very bad idea for a team so badly in need of developing long-term solutions. I also dont see the depth of OFers in the minors. At least not impact players. Kirilloff is a long way off. Walker and Palka are very suspect I root for them big time because of their power but but they are not good bets to be ML regulars. Granite is a BU strategy to Buxton and potential 4th OFer but he is not exactly highly regarded. They seem pretty thin in terms of high ceiling OFers in the minors. To whom are you referring when you speak of this depth in the minors? We might just have to agree to disagree.

OR the front office decided that a suspect almost 34 y/o outfielder had no role in the future of this team beyond this year an opted to keep players who did have a chance to contribute going forward. Thank god because their failure to do this in the past would actually be a valid criticism. Granted Arcia was suspect as well but at least the potential reward was high and long-term if he turned it around.

You know you are in trouble when Santana is your most trusted SP. Heck, he is the only proven SP we have unless you count Hughes and he might be the most questionable of all of the SPs now. Can we say we know what to expect from Gibson?

I see your point in terms of Dozier plus another asset for the right player(s) in return but we would be selling very low on Buxton right now. I am not sure who would be the addition but Buxton does not make sense to me.

I have to agree but our rotation is so wide open I would give it a shot. We have Santana, Gibson, and Berrios that I would say have to be in the rotation. It does not seem like a stretch that Rogers could be as good or better than Gibson. May is certainly more deserving of a shot but that still leaves the 5th spot open. Hughes seems doubtful. We could put Meija in that spot but would it hurt to start Meija at AAA or even in the pen and give Rogers a shot? Here is a question for everyone. I know we have a very small sample size with Meija but how would you compare Rogers and Meija?

May and Rogers in the rotation next year. Start the season with Santana / Berrios / Gibson / May / Rogers. Duffey & Hughes start in the BP. Hopefully, they earn a rotation spot and replace whoever falters or is injured. Gonsalves up in June. It would be great if the rotation was doing so well we can’t find a spot for him. Stewart might be ready by the middle of 2017 as well. Gibson is a placeholder unless he somehow gets it together. Hopefully, the rest of our staff performs well enough that Santana and Gibson become deadline trades. Meija / Gonsalves / Stewart are candidates to take their places. Hughes and/or Duffey certainly could round back into form and also be potential mid-season additions to the rotation. Hughes might be a candidate to start the season if he is in impressive form during spring training. Jay, Romero, and Thorpe in the wings. That’s a lot of pitching but there are question marks with everyone, even Santana given his history. Next year is going to be a bumpy but interesting ride. It will be worth it if the exit 2017 with 5 or 6 good starters. . I am hoping it ends up Berrios / Gonsalves / May / Rogers / Meija with Stewart and Jay pressing for a spot. It would be a nice bonus if the picked up some assets trading Santana and Gibson. That leaves a decent mix of RH options in the pen. Pressly / Kinzler / Chargois / Tonkin / Light. LHRP is up for grabs. Perkins may or may not be back. Miija could start next year in the pen. They should get Wheeler up an audition him for a spot in the BP next year. Add on quality LHRP in the off-season should be adequate if Perkins is back. He probably won’t be a closer but hopefully he can be a set-up guy. If one of Hughes/Perkins rounds back into form it would be a big plus. If we could add a top SP prospect to this mix by trading Dozier and also add a top college arm next June, we might just build a contender here.

These deals for an "ace" are usually a situation where the player has no more than 2 years of control. Even Kershaw would not make this team good enough to win the division. The team needs to grow up so this type of trade right now would relieve us of the very players who will hopefully make this team a contender. This might make sense in a couple years but it makes no sense right now.

This is an awfully prejudice statement. Maddon is the king of switching roles and using players in multiple roles. He is hailed a genius but the the twins are idiots. Beyond the Maddon comparison, this is an incredibly common thing. It looks like you just want to complain. What about Chris Sale being converted to a starter and Wade Davis or any number of other starters who found success as a RP. How about Gordon from 3B to LF. How about Desmond from SS to CF. Schwarber and Bryant to the OF and on and on.

This is what numerous people said about Berrios last year. As a matter of fact, their were sum who suggested he might be our best SP. The same was said about Burdi in terms of RPs the year before. That was obviously not the case but you still suggest there is no reason not to promote Gonsalves. Unless you have seen him pitch several times recently and also been privy to the coaching sessions, its a precarious position to suggest there is no reason he should not be promoted.

The Royals, Mets, Pirates, and Cubs all traded their best trade chips a couple years before becoming contenders. I think your point regarding reinforcements being 1.5 years away is both accurate and critical in terms of the roadmap for this team becoming a contender. I sure like having Dozier on this team but he will be gone by the time we are in contention. Hopefully, the new GM uses this asset to acquire the assets we will need to actually contend.

Probably closer to Martin / McCann money, right?

Has it worked out? No, but when you say worked out, I think you mean did it make them competitors. I don’t know the logic of those moves but anyone in that FO who believed Nolasco, Santana, and Hughes was going to makes them competitors should be tested for banned substances. Personally, I think those moves were designed to not suck. They had absolutely no pitching and those moves were designed to put a respectable product on the field during a rebuild regardless of if they admitted it was a rebuild. Granted, had they gone out and signed Scherzer or Lester and they would have been more fun to watch 1 out of 5 games but they would have had just as bad a record and maybe worse. They also would have had huge commitments to a SP well past their prime about the time this club will be ready to compete. Scherzer is under contract through his age 36 season and Lester through his age 37 season. Maybe they hold up but if they are likely very expensive boat anchors about the time this team will be ready to contend. It’s also very easy to say they should have gotten a top SP but who specifically? In 2014 when they really needed to do something, the only Ace type free agent SPs was Tanaka. Were we going to outbid the Yankees? The year before in 2013 it was Grienke and Sanchez. Grienke signed through his age 38 season. Would that have been wise? Were we going to outbid the Dodgers? Sanchez had a career year in 2013, a very good year in 2014, was bad in 2015 and terrible in 2016. Would that have “worked out”. It’s a lot easier to say they should have just signed a legit Ace than it is to actually get it done. Who specifically should they have signed in 2013,14, or 15? We can go all the way back to 2012. CJ Wilson and Mark Buehrle were the top free agent SPs in 2012. Would they have made this terrible team good?

The reason I am glad Ryan is gone is because he refused to move on from a mediocre player and at least give a potential superstar a legitimate shot at taking over the position. This is how you stay mediocre or worse. The failure to move Plouffe last off-season, especially after acquiring Park is symptomatic of why the FO needs to be changed. RA has shown more of the same. It has become common practice to clear out the veteran players and use those assets to rebuild everywhere but this team. Plouffe would be at the top of my list of players to move. I would non-tender him if I could not trade him.

Mike, I really liked Turner, partially just because I sway toward the great athletes. I thought he was less risk too and of course he was going to get to the majors earlier. I wanted them to take him but if we are fair, every mock draft had Gordon several spots ahead of Turner. The other point you made was basically the very old argument …. Why don’t the Twins just sign an ace? If you want to be correct here, the appropriate context is why is this type of signing almost non-existent among teams in the same revenue class or lower? To put this particular act of omission on the Twins is absolute bulls%!%. There has been two such signings by teams with equal or less revenue than the Twins in the past 20 years. Hampton by Colorado which was around 2002 and Grienke last year. It a BIG stretch to include the Grienke signing because they just signed a billion dollar TV contract. Having said this, I think they actually good manage their payroll to make it feasible to sign an Ace or “near Ace” once Mauer is gone given the number of young players on the roster. I think it is feasible but to call out the Twins for not doing it requires that one ignore how rare this is among small or mid-market teams.

I am not sure what Dozier would bring back in prospects. I have been of the opinion that we should not trade him unless the return is big. The standard for “big return” is changing for me because Dozier will be gone by the time we are legit contenders. Do we want Dozier for the next two years when we will be decent or do we want the assets we can get for him for 6+ years during a period we should be contending? Dozier does not need to bring an ace for the trade to be impactful. If he netted us a 2 or a strong 3, I would think that would be a good trade. There is a possibility we get even more than a SP if the trade works out. Big IF for sure but we wont anything to show for Dozier when we are actually contending. I guess we might be able to make a qualifying offer and get a pick. I was actually hoping for a nice surprise at the deadline with Dozier bringing a nice haul that included a strong SP prospect. Perhaps that could still happen next year.

I would be very happy with Polanco being almost as good as Dozier if trading Dozier could net us a front of the rotation starter. Obviously, there is some risk to this type of move because that front of the rotation arm is likely a high A or AA SP. However, the Twins are not likely to be serious contenders until they get some legit $1 and #2 types. I am not sure there is a legit ceiling of a #1 starter among Gonsalves, Jay or Stewart. To be fair KC, Boston, and Baltimore have proven in the past few years that you can contend with solid but unspectacular SP. I just think we need more legit front of the rotation SP prospects. Maybe they can get a college arm next June but I think they will end up picking a little too low to get a front of the rotation prospect out of college if they are picking 8 or 9. I also don't know how valuable Dozier is as a leader. I am not in that clubhouse and this should not be dismissed. It's all pretty unlikely with Dozier. Plouffe on the other hand is possible. Try him first on revocable waiver and see if someone will give us something/anything. If he does not get traded, pass him through again and hope someone takes him off our hands. I would take one more shot with E. Santana too. I just don't see us contending next year so trade him if the return is right.

Agree. This all hinges on Sano being able to stick at 3B but that's something IMO that should be given time. He is too valuable at 3B to give up on without giving him a long look. Its time to part ways with Plouffe regardless. If Vargas continues to hit, I fail to see how that's a problem. Park will have to play in AAA. If Park tears it up at AAA, that's hardly a problem either. He is then the back-up plan to Vargas or could be traded. His contract is $3M/yr. which should help make him tradeable. If he sits in AAA for awhile, he likely works out a deal to go back to Korea.

A mediocre 3B defensively that can perform to an 850+ OPS as Sano is capable of doing is a lot more valuable than a DH with the same OPS. I don't understand the desire of so many to relegate a very good athlete in his early 20s to DH. If I was Sano's agent, I would be pressing the Twins hard to give him a long leash although I don't really know if agents have that kind of dialogue with the team.. I would also be pressing my client to put in the time and effort working on defense and getting as lean as possible.

True but let's take optimistic point of view. The difference makers going forward should be the young guys. It would be really big if Berrios and Buxton come relatively close to their projections.

Seems pretty well reasoned. There are 7 other teams currently on pace to lose 90 or more games. Let's hope a couple of them finish strong and the Twins around 6. I would rather the Twins finish even stronger than slightly above 500. That would likely mean more to our future than a slightly better pick next June.

Give him the remainder of this year and next year. Address it if its still an issue at the end of the 2017 season. I would add that there should be a plan. That plan and its requirements should be agreed to by Sano, his representation, and the twins. The Twins should be addressing this with Sano and his agent. Playing 3rd reasonably well is probably going to require an effort similar to what Koskie did to become a very good 3B. Is Sano willing to put for that effort. Keeping in great shape would also help. Is Sano willing to make this effort? If not, then the Twins should perhaps accept he is going to be a DH and conversely Sano and his agent should understand that's probably the outcome and then everyone can plan accordingly.

As I said, I am inclined to believe that I am in full agreement with h2oface. We will just have to agree to disagree on the nature of this debate. After 16 pages of discussion, there are two potential conclusions, IMO. There is either more to it than two bad SPs being swapped or there is the usual complaining going on that once again the Twins did not get a good player in return for a bad one.