Mark G

I would add the catching factor. Sanchez and a first time call up are what we are going to live or die with? I would hope not. Add that to the trade desired list, and it doesn't leave as much room for BP help as we had before.

Okay, let's look at the macro picture here. Soto turns down 440 for 10, thinking he can do better somewhere else? Or is it possible he sees the micro picture here and sees that in Washington he can spend the rest of his career making a crap ton of money, but not winning. I mean, if Washington is below the .400 line WITH him, they must be pretty bad. And knowing he will take up the lions share of the payroll for the next 10 years he may never see a chance to be a winner for life. So he turns it down, and hopes they will trade him to a team that is willing to pay not only him, but others like him and win over the course of his career. If I were him, that is what I would do. And what do you think the odds are that the team who rises to that level are the Twins? I can barely keep a straight face as I type that. Give Correa the 7 year deal he is probably going to get and make him the Mauer of the franchise for the near future. Hope that Soto stays in the NL and never threatens us short of the World Series. Correa for Soto? Might be tempting, but I will take the bird in the hand any day of the week; that is if we can hold onto this particular bird.

Well, Cleveland won this afternoon, too. Let the score board watching begin.

It will be interesting down the stretch, too, because exactly half of our remaining games, and 23 out of the last 26 are against the division. I fear Cleveland more than Chicago because of their starting rotation and their closer; both better than either us or Chicago, at least before any trades that may come. Stay tuned on that front.

While it is always interesting to speculate the package that would be the final trade, and Winder and Steer just might be that package, I would reserve judgment until we actually see the offer we make. Personally, I would like a game one starter for a couple of Octobers, and I would probably pull the trigger if that turned out to be the package Oakland wanted. But Falvine hasn't been taking my calls since the All Star break, so I haven't been able to let them know that. I'm sure they just aren't getting my messages, but it does make me nervous.

If the computer spread dictated when a starter was pulled, wouldn't it be consistent each and every time with each starter? Whenever each one entered the third porthole, they are done; middle of inning or end of it. So why is it so inconsistent? Because if it was consistent, we wouldn't be having this discussion multiple times a year when he makes us crazy again. As of last week our BP had pitched the 3rd most innings in the league. And it shows, or we wouldn't be 5 games under .500 since May 24th. So the strategy, and it is a strategy on Roc's part, to use 3-6 pitchers a game every game of the season, goes easy on the starters and burns out the pen. And every year we debate if that is a good strategy. And every year we rack up the injuries we are trying to avoid by limiting the starters pitches a game and innings in a year. And round and round we go.

Far more potential? For every example such as the ones above you could name multiple examples of getting long-term prospects that never see a major league field. In previous articles about the '17 and '18 deadline trades it was noted we traded away major league assets and received 12 prospects total in return. Only 4 are left, and one of them is on the 60 day IL. The other 8 spent very little time or no time at all on the roster. And that is true across the board in baseball. Would Escobar have helped down the stretch in '18? Would Pressley have helped that year and maybe further? We traded away the chance of making that year better for the prospect of making the years after that better, IF the prospects we got panned out. A handful did; the rest not so much. If we take the long term view all the time, the 5th year of the 5 year plan never comes. When is it time to reverse "17 and "18 and go for now? If ever, wouldn't now be as good as any? And if not, then what we see is what we get, not only now but the distant future.

Trust me, I am not holding my breath. When I mentioned the Mets I was simply thinking they are a team that is always on the move in one way or another. Not always successful, and sometimes they spend far too much, but they are always trying to put together a better team than they have today. And they are trying to do it today. That is what I long for in this team. You could say the same for Boston. Or the Yankees, and so on......... My ultimate fear is you may be right about the whole thing. And if you are, we need to make significant changes from the top on down. Because if, after 5 plus years of trading for prospects and drafting what they believe are good players for the future, we don't have enough high end prospects to make some bold moves, what could possibly make us think we will ever? The same management that has put us in the position you lay out above is the team that we are counting on to lift us higher in the coming year(s)? You say, and possibly rightfully so, that we have graduated the guys in the system that have what is needed, and there just isn't anybody left of that caliber to entice other teams to want them. If the cupboards are that bare in our system, that our best prospect is a 23 year old who has had career threatening injuries to his knee not once, but twice, then I guess what you see is what you get. Grab a couple of relief rentals and hope for the best. But the bulk of this pitching staff simply isn't good enough to compete with the teams we will see in the playoffs; hell, they aren't as good as Cleveland. Our line up is pretty good, and I hope we find a way to keep it, but we haven't brought in top end pitching in FA as of yet, so high end trades need to be an option. And if there is no one in our system that is tradable, then I guess we better get used to the Bundy's, Archers, Smiths, Cottons, etc., etc., because that is who we are willing to sign. Someone here talked about the difference between competitive and contender. I hope we are willing to settle for competitive then, and we better hope our division doesn't get any better. If this is the pinnacle of the 5 year plan, we not only need a new plan, we need a new planner.

Spot on.

You paint a beautiful picture, and I wish it were a reality, but there are just too many pieces that have to fit together perfectly to have that picture come to fruition next year and beyond. In the meantime, we have where we are at, which is on the cusp of a division title, but getting our hat handed to us in the playoffs. Way too many of the above mentioned pieces have to fall into place in the future to make me want to wait another year/more years down the line when we have the opportunity to do something now. You make SS a priority going forward. What if we convinced the one we have to stick around, because we followed up the bold move with him with another bold move (or two? or three?)? And, just for the sake of discussion, where does that #1 starter come from? We haven't gotten a FA to come here, so do we trade for one? If so, why not now? If buying the additional parts were the answer, I guess I think we would have already provided that answer. We got Gray and Paddock in trades. Also Maeda. We get the Bundy's and Archers (and see previous years) in FA. Time to trade quality for quality. Between trades for prospects in the past, and multiple years of drafts (like this past week) we should have produced enough chips to play a hand it is time to play. We have been saying "next year", or building for the future half my lifetime. We are close enough with this core to go for it now. What is the worst that can happen? More injuries? Can there be any more? We fall short again? As if we haven't done that enough times? No one can prove a negative, and so no one can say what would happen for sure in a scenario that doesn't happen, but how will we know if we don't try? We do know what happens when we don't (see the last.........oh, I don't know, how many years). I don't know, I would just like to TRY. Just ONCE, I would like to be the Mets!! You guys are the best, here, and I love the debate. Check back later.

Well said.

Sounds good. Except that this core is 5 games under .500 since May 24th, and hasn't shown the wherewithal to turn it around without help. Do we wait for the off season to get that help, or do we get it in the next two weeks? And, if we do it right, the next two weeks could go a long way for getting the help for next year as well. As of today, we are looking at a window that is part way open, but could open further or close further in the next two weeks. The 5 guys you talk about were Correa, Orshela, Bundy, Smith, Pagan, etc. And we are where we are. I simply don't have the confidence that next year will bring 5 better guys than this year, so I would like to get them now while we have the chips to bargain with. I truly get where you are coming from, I am just more of a gambler, I guess, and would like to take the risk while the window is part way open. Because there is no guarantee either way; I would just rather go down swinging than looking. Thanks for the exchange. It is nice to know the fans are passionate.

I don't write this to argue with the above, but 2 things struck me instantly. One is Lewis. A player that has had 2 career threatening knee injuries by the age of 23 is untouchable? I hope you are right, but nothing in his life so far has suggested he will turn into the player we hoped, because he can't stay on the field. Two, if everything else you said is true what does it say about the long term plan of this FO? This is the 6th year of their plan, and you just outlined a cluster @#$% of a situation that doesn't seem to have an immediate solution. Not saying you are wrong, necessarily, but if you are right, where do we go from here? I am an advocate of being a buyer, to the point of go big or go home. Because the teams that go big will take the pieces we need and leave us where we are right now, which from what I read above, isn't where we would want to be. It truly is a debate, and one that is necessary at the point this team is at right now. I am glad we are having it.

I get your point, but it sounds a lot like the never ending 5 year plan to me. The one where year 5 never comes.

There are multiple reasons why a team in our position would make a push during the deadline, not all of them being to get to the WS. One is to energize your fan base and keep them coming in during the playoff push. Or maybe to do a preemptive strike to keep teams like Cleveland and Chicago from getting the players necessary to make a push against you, this year and beyond. Or maybe to keep players like Correa, or possible future free agents, thinking this is a place that wants to win and makes them want to stay/come here. And, of course, to win this year when you have the chance. In our case, we may want to consider all of the above and make a couple of bigger deals than this FO would normally consider. It just might affect much more than the next 68 games. Just like you have to spend money to make money, sometimes you have to invest capital (prospects/players) to gain capital; capital, that in the long run, makes you a stronger competitor. I guess we are going to find out if the time is now, or if this is just another never ending 5 year plan.

Any pitcher who has never thrown more than 111 innings prior to this year, and has had injury issues in the past would fit right in with this organization. As for cost, a corner outfielder and a utility type infielder who is only hitting .250ish in AAA wouldn't be outlandish at all if that is what Miami would take. And in terms of dollars we should be able to handle his contract, so I don't see why we wouldn't at least explore it, injury issues not withstanding. Get a medical report and, if it is good, make an offer.

You may very well be right, but I would submit he made it quite a few of those years based on reputation as much as anything else. He also was not a bad hitter. From '84 to '94 he never hit below .254 with pretty decent, if not healthy, on base percentages. He was a complete player (except for home runs). I just can't help but believe Buck is getting in on his reputation, not his overall stats. Let's hope he makes a game saving catch.

I wish I shared your enthusiasm for the line up scoring runs well above average. When looking at the stats as a whole for 92 games, it looks like we are doing fine there, but look closer and you find we have scored 4 runs or more in 48 games, and 3 runs or less in 44. Almost half of our games are low offense games. And it has been that consistent the entire season. 8-9 runs one game 1-2 runs the next. And the Pioneer Press says in todays paper that Roc is going to start the 2nd half with a 4 man starting rotation. I guess that means 9 BP guys? Makes sense, I guess, when you are in love with your pen pitching close to half the innings. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to go back to 5 or even 6. When we sucked in past times I at least understood how and why we sucked. And when we were doing great I understood why then, too. Now? We go from 1st to last, back to first again (at least at the break), hit 4 home runs one game and can't get a sacrifice fly, much less a single to score runners the next, pitch a gem one day, and give up 11 runs the next. We never have a regular line up either in the field or in the batting order, and I have yet to figure out why pitchers get pulled and when. We will not play what was once called small ball, because it goes against Roc's computer spread sheets. So we adjust our "launch angle" and swing for the fences; even Bremer and Perkins say as much during games sometimes. Worked in '19; not so much in '21. Today? See above. I hear everyone say it is just the way the game is today, that everyone does it this way, but no one can explain why. Except that they are trying to cut down on injuries.......how is that working out for us? Even the guys on national TV say we have more injuries than almost any team in the league. up to, and including, the minor league clubs. I could go on the rest of the afternoon, but I would drive myself even more crazy than I am already. Far wiser folks than me (yes, there are those out there ) might be able to understand this outfit, and if you are out there, give me a hand. Start with this question. Aside from the 23 home runs, we have a guy hitting .216 and striking out exactly one out of every three official at bats. Picture Sano with 23 home runs and the other stats above. On what planet does he make the All Star team? Or any other player for that matter. As much as we all love Buck, how does that happen? How many other teams' fans are going to compare those stats with their CF and ask the same question. And don't answer it is his defense; I can't think of a time in my adult lifetime that a player has been selected to the squad for his defense. Home runs are nice, but look deeper and tell me where he is one of the top offensive players in the AL (I know, I know, his OPS. Doesn't make up for a .293 OBA) But I digress. I only know I knew this game well and understood it for 40 years. The last 5-10 are like I flew in from another planet and am trying to figure out what all these earthlings are watching........and why? Sometimes I wonder if the guys in the HOF don't ask the same questions I do. You guys are right; we need 5 days off.

Yes, the players play the game, and the manager can't pitch, hit, or throw for them. But what a major league manager IS supposed to do is put the players he has in the best position to get the most out of them on a day in, day out basis. Positioning them in the field, the batting order, when to pull a starter and how to manage a bullpen day in, and day out. In game strategy; when to bunt, when to steal, etc., etc. When to pinch hit, if at all, when to put in defensive replacements, etc. Different managers do those things differently, and would have different records with the same 26 man roster. A massive difference? Who knows, no one can prove a negative, so to speak. Some of us feel that the Roc hasn't done the best job possible of all of those things, and as a result the players are not producing the results they are capable of from time to time. Does he make as much of a difference as the players themselves? No, in my extremely humble opinion. Could he be doing a better job of all of the above? Absolutely; again in my extremely humble opinion. So much of the criticism is justified; maybe not all of it, but much of it.

Totally agreed. If your bullpen is your best shot early in a 2-2 game, what does that say about your confidence in your starters? I don't know, maybe that is why we need 8 or more starters a year.

"I thought today that the best chance to go out there and win the game was to get our bullpen guys in there earlier than normal." Really, Rocco? Our best chance in a 2-2 game is to bring in 5 relievers to pitch 6 innings and have all 5 of them be on that night? With 2 more games this weekend still to play? How's that working out for you Roc? Am I the only one miffed with this guy?

Unless I missed a line or two up there, all the trades combined, and all the great prospects we thought we got combined, shows we have 4 guys with the team as I write this, and Alcala is on the 60 day IL. 12 minor league prospects, and 4 years later 4 are on the team. The other 8 either saw very limited time here or none at all. Not sure how that would be assessed as a success, but that's just me. As I wrote in the 2017 trade deadline article, I have always wondered if the trading away of so many players their first two years was a way of undermining Molitor so they would be able to justify letting him go and bringing in the guy they wanted all along. The overall return for those two years isn't a shining star on their resume but, again, maybe that's just me.

I would respectfully submit that there are multiple reasons for trading at the deadline, especially in situations like the Twins find themselves now. Back on May 24th the team peaked at 11 games over .500. In the 48 games since then they have gone 22-26 and, if this site is any indication, the fan base is getting more than a little restless. Winning this division just isn't exciting a whole lot of people based on the level of competition within. The fans are looking to see where we stack up in October - again. Trading a couple of prospects the average fan has never followed for something they can see today re-energizes the fan base and lets them know the FO is behind the team. It gives them something to hope for in October as well as it keeps them watching in between now and then. Standing pat tells the team and the fans that we are perfectly satisfied with competing within the division and not so much in October. Now, truth be told, that is how they DO feel, as evidenced by past trade deadlines, so those of us who pay closer attention are not holding our collective breath waiting on them. But a couple of nice additions would go a long way to rewarding the team and the fans who have stuck with them through the last 2 or 3 years. They can go back to their never ending 5 year plan soon enough.

The one thing that I, personally, have never accused the FO of being is short sighted; if anything they are continuously looking 5 years down the road so that the 4th and 5th year never comes. That's why some folks wish they would put a few chips on the table when we are as close as this. Not the guys who are coming up to the club last year and this, but the prospects still a couple of years (or more) away. Again, it is nice to consider yourself competitive year after year, but competitive compared to whom? The Central Division, or the teams who wipe the floor with us come October? With some of the players we have today and probably won't have much longer (I'm thinking the left side of our infield), a couple of pitchers might be that ability to compete better come October. That will cost prospects, not free agent money. We have enough to go for it. Be aggressive. Or not, and keep competing with the Central.

I have never thought, even at the time, that most of those trades really meant anything other than moving money and/or positions on the 40 man around. The Kintzler trade, though, was embarrassing. Your closer, and not a bad one at that, for a kid in low A ball? In a year you have a chance for the playoffs? Even if you don't necessarily buy at the deadline, you hang on to the pitching you have. I have always wondered if that trade and all the ones that followed in '18 were designed to undermine Molitor so they could justify letting him go and get their guy in there. This FO has shown a penchant for building from the ground up, not playing for today. I know there have been exceptions here and there, but overall they have been stubbornly unwilling to part with their precious prospects to get talent today, saying their goal is to be competitive year in and year out. If anything, they go the opposite direction, trading talent today for more prospects to build on. Competitive is nice, but once in a while it would be nice to go all in and be competitive in October. This deadline will be interesting. I don't see us as sellers by any means, but how much we will be willing to spend in buying mode is the question because there will be a lot of competition for what is for sale.