old nurse

Just curious, but aside from Greinke, what free agents would you prefer to Haren? He'd actually be the guy I'd put #2 on my wish list. I agree that I don't want to trade for him because I don't feel like giving up prospects for a guy under contract for 1 year and he likely would come cheaper on the market under a multi-year deal, but still he's the guy I hope the Twins target hardest. I didn't make it clear that I would not advocate spending the money on one player. Haren is still good, just not 15.5 million good. A second thought would be for the money what is better Pavano and Blackburn or Haren and DeVries? Last years money was about the same for both pairs.

The bone chips could explain why Blackburn had altered his mechanics (Parker Hagerman analysis last June).

The premise is that your team would not be able to attract a free agent. For a 13-15 million a year one time contract you ought to be doing better than Haren or Santana. If your prospect is that valuable as to get multi millions off the contract of these two, you can probably deal that prospect for a better pitcher or contract. The Angels are fishing for a sucker.

A rotation of Buerle, a healthy Scott Baker, a healthy Marcum, Scott Diamond not regressing, and Gibson for for most of the year could produce a very winning regular season team. The asking price for Buerle is the problem. The near major league ready high upside prospects the Twins have are few. The Twins would have to eat some salary. The alternative is an empty Target Field.

You can suppose what I would say all you want and be wrong. What is the best team? Purely an opinion. It is a fine thing to have an opinion. The reasons given for an assumed better team losing is all the calls going against them, the lucky breaks, didn't have home field advantage, etc. That could be true for the one game play in, but are there any statistics that show your point? No. It is subjective. The point of the regular season is to get into the playoffs, not be the subjective best team. If a team plays up to their full potential for 12 games in late October, then they proved they are the best team. They overcame the flukes and excuses. Most teams had a better year relative to expectations than the Tigers. Any none 90 loss team did. In the end the Tigers bats went collectively cold again. In regards to best season in regards to expectations I would think that would fall to the Nationals. They did not even expect to be where they were or they would have used Strasburg differently.

This. I think when I make the comment that the winners of the World Series are a tournament winner and not the "best" team in baseball, there are those that think I'm saying they're unworthy winners. That's not the case at all. There is a lot of luck/goofy hops/short series stuff that can mean one team gets breaks that another doesn't. What I've been saying all along here is simply winning in the postseason does not determine who is the better overall team. There is not a balanced schedule within baseball. The team that wins the most games in just the team that won the most games. There will never be a way to determine what team is the best as no roster is static. A team adds to through trades and player development, they lose through injury and fatigue. You can find excuses for losing in the post season and say your team was the better team, but it does not change the fact your team for a week was not the better team.

@Leviathan. The game 4 starter for the Reds did not lose the game for them, the bullpen did. It might or might not have mattered if Cueto was available. Broken bat hits, funny hops happen in any game and on a regular basis. That is part of the game. Things like letting the ball dribble through your legs is a flukey thing. Someone like Drew Butera with an OPS of 800 through the playoffs would be a flukey thing.

When your hitting falls apart like the Yankees vs Detroit, and currently Detroit, the pitching doesn't matter. Does your whole team play well under the pressure of the playoffs. The Giants have enough players playing their best at the right time. That has kept them coming back in the earlier rounds. Carrying that thought towards the Twins, will the pieces added on offense to the Twins be able to come through. Span played well in his two times in the playoffs. Mauer and Morneau have had highs and lows. Vogelsong kicked around the majors and the minors for a long time before something clicked. The Twins attempt in 2012 was PJ Walters, in 09 it was RA Dickey. There will be somebody signed that they take a chance on.

Using your standard of regular season team statistics and single factor analysis to determine best pitching staff one can get different results. WAR by team pitching shows the Tigers have the best pitching staff followed by the Rangers and Rays. XFIP says it is the Rays, Cardinals then Phillies. Gee, lets go by team strikeouts. That is one statistic independent of the rest of the team. Brewers win, Phillies, then Rays. Using three different methods, three different answers who was the top team for pitching. The litmus test for validity? All three of the measures I used have the Twins at the bottom. The Rockies and the Indians have worse team ERA than the Twins. Now for the third time, you claim that it is flukes that win the WS. Care top expound on your BS claim?

and how hard does pat neshack throw?jaime moyer hung around how long throwing how hard , curly ryan has said he is open to bringing back 3 time sore armed pavano and his 86 mph fastball? Moyer is a lefthander,starter, had a long history of pitching adequately in MLB, pitched poorly in 2012, and is retired. Slama is none of those. Neshak depended on an unusual delivery and pre arm injury was well over 90 (see fangraphs),since his arm injury he has not pitched much in the majors. Pavano is a starter and in 09 and 10 was regularly in the low 90's. If Pavano's arm is sore it would be unlikely he would come back. Why wouldn't you, outside of history of injury concerns, cheaply bring back Pavano if he is healthy and pitching like he did in 09 and 10 ( Please read, '09 an '10. NOT '11 and '12. I suspect I might have to point that out to you a few time. '09-'10 Pavano

[quote=TheLeviathan;6 By all means - let's see the basis upon which you have determined the Giants are the best pitching team. I Never claimed the Giants were the best pitching team in the playoff. I claimed your logic in determining what was the best team in the playoffs was fatally flawed. And to further show your reading ability I have never claimed to like the Giants. The regular season stats of those players not on the roster and not going to play make a difference. You used three unnamed teams in an attempt to discredit me. There were 10 teams in the playoffs. Single factor analysis. Is ERA the best determinant of best pitching. Individually there is not even a close 1:1 relationship to the Cy Young award and ERA leader. If the individual with the best ERA is not voted the best pitcher, why should the team with the best ERA be considered the best pitching team. Your analysis of declaring the top pitching team is simplistic at best. I never declared any team to be the top pitching team. I found your analysis simplistic and called you as such. Where are the flukes wild claiming person that determine who wins the WS. I want your BS answer.

That was your initial premise. My initial premise was that you are erroneous to equate best team ERA in the season to better team in the playoff. First off, due to injury and roster shuffling not all pitchers used during the season are on the playoff roster. With the goal of winning, the net effect of the mop up crew of the bullpen is meaningless towards 4 wins. It is rare (rare does not mean never) to use a fifth starter in the playoffs. In search of accuracy of winning baseball then one should compare what is used in winning situations, your top 4 starters and top three to four relievers. That is what is used in winning games. In terms of complaining of lack of research, are there not better metrics than ERA to determine better pitching? You would appear to be the one being lazy Jeff Grey comment was to jerk your chain. Where is there any flukey plays that caused the Giants to win a game?

Stras was shut down and Cueto had an untimely injury.....your point? The point I was annoyed by was the suggestion that team stats don't matter because only your top guys pitch in the postseason and SF has clearly the best top guys. 1) Their top guys are comparable with two teams that were eliminated earlier than them. If not teams eliminated earlier were better and 2) Not just your top guys pitch as Barry Zito has demonstrated this postseason. So it's a ridiculous argument that none of your points do anything to support. You may be bothered by the comment that team stats don't matter but how many fifth starters pitch in the playoffs? How much are you using your relief players? Not much. Be bothered by that fact all you want but the use of these players in the regular season versus the post season is significantly different. Comparing team stats when your rosters is used differently thus is not an accurate way to portray the team in an attempt to compare them. Nothing you have posted disproves that.

Sorry for the misediting. But if you think what johnnydakota had to say was well said I really hope that was the sarcasm you have shown in the past.

How do you know Ryan had the final say with the trades of Santana, Hardy, Young and Thome? Pure unsubstantiated conjecture on your part. Why need truth when you can make it up? Romero is a journeyman with one good year. Giving up on average 1.5 baserunners and a 3.5 ERA for a reliever is a great must have reliever? Why then is Matt Capps vilified? Casillas skill set was observable, his brain for consistency as a major leaguer not. Ortiz left as a free agent. He was acquired and performed well for little of nothing. When players have shown up in Gardenhire's doghouse their trade value becomes nil. That is the problem with Gardenhire's doghouse being so public. It hamstrings the GM.

Did you even look at anything before you posted this? Talk about meaningless: Cueto has a chance to be the NL Cy Young. (Which he did, BTW, in a much worse home park for pitching than anyone on SF) Latos and Bailey were pretty comparable with Vogelsong and Bumgartner too. Zimmerman and Gio are both outstanding pitchers. The Cincy bullpen was ridiculous in the regular season. All that and the fact that SF's fifth starter most of the season (Barry Zito) has pitched well in two key games. I could keep going with this post but I've put more time, effort, and thought into than you earned with that retort. Yeesh. How many innings did Cueto and Strasburg through this postseason? Not that I disagree with you neccesarily, I think luck is obviously a huge factor. SF is lucky that their rotation remained healthy, and I as all those teams have pretty great frontline SP, which is the most important factor. I guess I don't count Lincecum this year as he hasn't been in the rotation all year. He never mentioned Strasburg. He mentioned Gio and Zimmerman from the Nats, both guys who made 32 starts. Neither completed 200 innings, but both were over 190. Cueto led the league in starts this year and threw nearly 220 innings, but he was injured in the postseason. Lincecum also never left the rotation, tying Cueto for the lead league in games started, though he only tossed 186 innings in the same amount of starts. Just some facts for your argument, some you stated correctly, some not. Cueto, Gio and Zimmerman were not fifth starters. If you are using your long relief guy in the playoffs you are probably out of the game unless the starter got injured. What winning team was using their last guys on the bench of the bullpen. The 5th starter throughout the season is meaningful, in the playoffs not so. The 4/5 guys in the bullpen can be meaningful during the season (note Jeff Gray did post 6 wins). Are you really going to be using them in the playoffs if the game is in doubt? The San Fransisco starting rotation is the anomaly in baseball, not the norm.

In regards to the MI, what is out there? From the list of FA and players discussed not much. That could be why bullpen is the second priority. There is more of a chance to improve the bullpen than the MI.

As your numbers for home runs for the stadium fluctuates perhaps all your numbers prove is the quality of the team in it. As you have a poor pitching staff with a few power hitters, your home park as a home run paradise would go up. If you have decent pitchers and a team of slap hitters, your park is less homer friendly.

The bad part about your analysis is Cain was in the late first round (think the Twins would trade the player they drafted ahead of Cain that year straight up now?) nor was he taken in consecutive years with the other 3. Many other pitchers were picked before Linecum and Bumgarner, it does come down to scouting. As good as the scouting has been for Tampa, do you think they would take Beckham over Posey again?

. The argument is, if he was worth bringing up they would have? Why? Because the Twins have shown themselves to be great judges of pitching talent lately? 88 mph fastball for a reliever is kind of slow. Great at deception in the minors. He will get a shot at ST. If a club wants him for 50K it will because they looked at the slash line, not the scouting reports.

It is like cheering for the second string QB in football

can anyone tell me the last time curly made a good trade? If you even bothered to remember AJ for Nathan and Liriano worked out pretty good, Romero for Casilla wasn't exactly a bad trade. Picking up Castillo and Stewart for very little worked out. Trading for decent minor leaguers or players with 1-2 years service has been Ryan's specialty. Trading veterans after their fifth season was also what he did. For what Ryan traded in the past he did not have leading up to 2012.

The statistics of your fifth starter, long reliever, and last two guys in the bullpen should be meaningless for the playoffs. Team stats are meaningless. The utility guy's stats should be meaningless. You probably did not get there with a third sting catcher.

I would predict that any pitcher looking for a one year contract to better themselves while earning a good payday will contact the Twins. There will be one pitcher out there not happy with the offers.

WAR seems to be a big deal on this thread. By Fangraphs WAR, the Twins would have a difficult time signing three pitchers better than Diamond