YourHouseIsMyHouse

It would seem like it. I just don't see this happen elsewhere in the MLB where everything on a contending team's rotation ends up in the scrap heap. There's no use of explaining either side much more and I have no problem with what you're saying. I just think they (FO) have done more than people realize and it's unfair to be highly critical even if they are accountable. Being a GM is difficult and while the plan looked good in my view and the Twins of course, it was risky enough to end up where we are now. Too often there are 'geniuses' who tear apart the Twins thinking and act proud when it blows up in their face as they had so 'predicted' (or claim to). I'm not accusing you of doing so obviously since you backed up your point despite it being very pessimistic. I used 2010 as my example since it was the last good year (duh ). Further back is when things started to crumble, but it would have been more difficult to trace and much would have been bogus speculation anyway: like oh they could have drafted him instead, acquired this guy, etc. I suppose all we can agree on is that it took bad turn and is a mess now. At the very least a few young players, who never would have otherwise, made the show and had their dreams come true.

I agree. I still click on the links below the huge image. It's a little clumsy looking and maybe if it was a lot bigger or a lot smaller I'd use it. I dislike the size it's at. Plus, most of the time articles I've already read pop up in it. Not a bad idea, but I wouldn't mind it gone either.

Awesome news!! Let's hope it helps.

Terry Ryan 4/5 with Macaroni, Ham, Doughnut, and Burton being great. Marquis being the Milk Dud. Terry Ryan has a great taste in players, wouldn't you say!! lol this post is lame.

Unlikely anyone really reads this post after seeing the feelings about it (I've avoided it myself till now), but instead of white people deciding what's racist against non-whites, how about we(I am white) let minorities decide what they are offended by. If this was truly an issue, Delmon Young or any other African Americans would be speaking out against it. Stop acting like you have a noble cause to defend someone and start treating them as you would individuals of the same ethnicity. People who are fully capable of defending themselves. If Bremer had said Thome was property, or however he had contexted it, no one would have said a thing. The problem is people are looking for some excuse to shout "Racist!" and think themselves higher of that person who slipped in an accidental "no-no". Why can't we treat Young the same as any other former white Twin? His color doesn't make him any more different than the personality he choses does. The white people who have a problem with this are really the ones that are truly prejudiced (which is the more appropriate term than racist for 95% of negative issues surrounding culture struggles).

Surely not a 'leap' to think so this year because you saw 2011. The point was was it predictable after a season like 2010? To have all 5 projected starters fail.

You were talking about the Twins front office and their best guess in 2010 what a 2012 rotation might look like. They obviously had no idea what Liriano would do in 2011 and 2012 or they would've traded him after the 2010 season. So your point about "1 good season in 4" is irrelevant. After the 2010 Liriano was 26, a fringe Cy candidate, and cheap through 2012. Alex Wimmers was a 21 year old with 15 innings of A ball under his belt. Suggesting that the front office projected Wimmers as a 2012 major league starter over Liriano at that point is absurd. So your predicted rotation becomes Liriano, Baker, Pavano, Blackburn, and Gibson. Your point was that unforeseeable injuries ruined that rotation. My contention is that even then it didn't look great, and by the end of 2011 it should've been obvious that NONE of those guys could be counted on in 2012. Setting aside that wildcard Liriano guy you forgot about, the 2010 winter meeting FO brain trust was rightly (according to you) counting on these guys to anchor the 2012 rotation: Baker: Almost as maddening as Liriano. Very good stuff, but zero previous seasons in which he wasn't either injured or mediocre. Pavano: Coming off a good season which also saw his K rate plummet by 2.5/9 innings. 36 years old at the start of the 2012 season. Blackburn. One of the most hittable pitchers in MLB, he got worse in 2010. Miniscule K rate went even lower. Gibson: A rapidly rising star, he finished his first year of pro ball in AAA. So Gibson was a promising but unknown quantity who suffered a serious injury. But how on earth can you say that any of the other three tanking was some sort of unforeseeable shock? None of the four pitchers had pitched 200+ innings more than once in the three preceding seasons. And at the end of 2011 it should've been obvious that not a single one of the guys in your projected rotation could be counted on. The Twins responded to their shattered rotation plan by signing Jason Marquis and conceding the 2012 season. That's no big deal if he's just a body while you rebuild, but the Twins haven't behaved much like a rebuilding team. If you think that an organization finds itself with a rotation full of castoffs because of bad luck, you've got to make a better case than that. The first statement you bolded wasn't actually a point. I had forgotten 2010 was Liriano's best season. The past few had muffled my image of him. Liriano was certainly showing flashes of an ace and the rotation did have a lot of promise. 1. Liriano- who like you said a Cy Young candidate. His slider and fastball were both plus pitches and a potential #1 pitcher fills the ace slot here. 2. Gibson- was projecting to be a #2 and was on the fast track to making the team in as soon as 2011. A #2 in the number two slot. 3. Baker- had a 4.32 Career ERA following 2010. His decent 7.1 K/9 made it acceptable to think he could be a #3 (Where he proved to be capable of doing so in 2011.) 4. Carl Pavano- probably the 2nd best season of his career where he eclipsed 200 innings. Regression was likely of course, but a 4/5 spot should have been manageable. 5. Nick Blackburn- an awful 2010 campaign with suspected hope he could become his 4ERA version of the past two years. Not a 'bad' #5, but could have been much better and it was foolish to give him a big extension. DEPTH Wimmers- Projected as a 3. Could have been knocking for the #5 spot in the early point of his career. Bromberg- I didn't mention him originally. But he had excellent year in Rochester in 2010. A 3.98 ERA, 1.154 WHIP, and a 8.1 K/9 as a 22 year old. Waldrop- looked like a back end guy, but he did post a 2.57 ERA and a 6.1 K/9 in AAA Not only does it look promising, but they have the appropriate potential/expected production for each spot as well. How convenient to have a #1 in the 1, a #2 in the 2, and so forth. Only Baker and to some extent Pavano performed to the appropriate measure in 2011. And all flamed out 2012 (even all 3 of depth). I just don't think it's crazy to think that most of your pitchers can perform consistently over a time span of a few years. I mean what do you pay them for? I guess not and after a little more research, there is some more depth than I expected.

RiverBrian is clearly not the first person to think about it.

Nah, very unlikely especially when AA players like Arcia and Hicks are question marks. Far too young as he just got out of rookie ball this year. They would have also had to add him to the 40 man roster which wouldn't be good. Like Rosario and he may have been at Ft. Myers if he avoided injury, but not the Twins. As far as Casilla goes, he has really fallen out of favor and I would be shocked if he was back with the Twins next season. Escobar and Florimon may capture his new 'utility role' and Alexi rarely gets PAs now. On the flip side, I wish management had given him more time this season to contribute. Casilla had a fantastic 2011 and 2010 and appears to be a personable guy. Why they gave up on him so early this year as a starter baffles me. I wouldn't mind giving him a one year deal to see what's left/there. 3/6 seasons he's posted a OPS+ of 91 or better which is good for a middle infielder. If you believe in WAR, even in 2012 he's managed to get 1.0 somehow. The glove is a little worrisome, yet much less so at 2B. With so few alternatives and a cheap contract, there isn't much of a gamble. Beware though. When he's off...HE'S OFF!

I guess as somewhat of a concluding statement, it's not that the Twins didn't draft starting pitchers for the future or reload. They did draft plenty of high upside hurlers and the success rate finally caught up to them. Look at any draft and you'll see how few of those guys 'make it'. In the Twins case, nearly all of those guys failed and drafting late, poor coaching, poor scouting, and the big one: injuries/medical staff, ravaged the starting pitching pipeline and system. More or less, it's an excuse on behalf of the management that gets a lot of heat here. Sure, you can attribute some of problem to them, but much of it was unpredictable and a part of baseball that just happens. Different faces in the front office situation couldn't have handled it much better. These multiple occurrences would hurt most major league teams and not just the 'lowly' and 'stupid' Twins.

I had heard Wimmers was the 'safe' and most league ready arm if I remember correctly. A two year ETA doesn't seem too out of reach with that being said. Unfortunately he's free fallen since the organization COMPLETELY screwed up his UCL tear. Too stupid to get the surgery done right away. I'm sorry, but if you seriously believe that the Twins FO in 2010 was counting on a guy with at BEST one full year of LOW minor league experience to hold a spot in the major league 2012 rotation, well, that's just crazy. When have they ever done that voluntarily, with either pitchers or position players? And the idea that Wimmers would take the place of a near-Cy Young candidate under contract through 2012 just indicates that you don't believe your own point about the 'woe is me' luck of the Twins with injuries. If you thought the point could stand on its own, you wouldn't have to rely on the rainbows and unicorns scenario you concocted to place Wimmers (darn the bad luck!) instead of Liriano (who sucked instead of getting injured and didn't fit your bad luck narrative) in the 2012 rotation. So that simple a change completely screws with my whole "gag" here? Excuse me for forgetting Liriano was good for a year. 2010 being the only good season of the past 4 years can make a person forget when it wasn't really what I was basing my point around anyway. Throw Liriano in instead of Wimmers at 4 or even higher I really don't care. I thought it was likely Wimmers would be in the bigs in 2012. That actually makes it look like a better rotation they forecasted.

If you don't get Ks in rookie ball, it's extremely unlikely you will in the majors. Many times I see players that post 10+ K/9s in the GCL/Advanced rk only end up around 6 or 7 per 9 at the higher stages. I think because of performance, Mata should be above Boyd. Mata: 2.40 ERA, 1.09 WHIP, 45 IP, 48K, .168 BAA Boyd: 2.40 ERA, 1.40 WHIP, 45 IP, 29 K, .258 BAA In additon to being in the same league, Mata is also 2 months Boyd's junior and had a phenomenal year in the GCL last year as well. Both are RHPs that stand 6'2". Boyd has a really good curveball and maybe more "plus" pitches, but I think it's time we saw Mata in the top 20 and at least close to Boyd.

Well played!

An .800+ OPS in the middle infield? Pinch me, I must be dreaming! I don't expect him to keep stay above .800 obviously, but I have long thought the same thing and I think it's worth a try. He played there once this season for the Twins and has a little work in the minors there too. If he can manage a .960 Fielding % while staying fast and hitting well count me in.

I had heard Wimmers was the 'safe' and most league ready arm if I remember correctly. A two year ETA doesn't seem too out of reach with that being said. Unfortunately he's free fallen since the organization COMPLETELY screwed up his UCL tear. Too stupid to get the surgery done right away.

Maybe all these faults were pre-destined.... it did allow Minnesota to draft Byron Buxton, Twins superstar, and a future member of the HOF....

What frequently gets tossed around on TD is that the Twins failed to 'restock' on arms. True to an extent, I fervently disagree it's the main problem and I think it's more unfortunate luck to fault. The Twins lack of depth there has been exposed this season, but that's not to say the original plan was bad. 2 'major league ready' pitchers they drafted both succumbed to TJ surgery and a few previously reliable starters flopped in addition to a free agent signing. At this point, the Twins FO of 2010 had to expect a rotation similar to this: 1. Gibson 2. Baker 3. Innings Eater Pavano 4. Wimmers 5. Blackburn Liriano also being a factor if everything went according to plan. Injuries took a toll on 4/5 of these players (TJ for 3) and that's not something any FO could predict.

One EXTREMELY interesting split for Arcia: Bases empty: .221 Avg. Runners on: 443 Avg. RISP: 414 Avg. CLUTCH and TFFA's RBI reference isn't surprising.

My, my. Berrios is looking like quite the prospect!

Agree with most of your thinking. Signing two pitchers of that caliber seems very unlikely. One of those three would fare will enough. I think it's too early to make a decision on Blackburn. After the season ends, the Twins should have a pretty good idea of how to move forward. His 2013 salary is so daunting that if Minnesota can see any glimpse of hope, they should hold on to him.

I don't know much about the rules on international signings. My mistake.

Mauricio Silva for .37 Million ^He is a 16 year old righty from Venezuela who has topped out at 93mph. So 2.49 million for sure and possibly more.

I'm starting to think Adam Walker has more power potential than Sano does. 12 is flat out ridiculous at this point in a short rookie season. He's a little older than the #1 prospect so that may be why. Excellent job Jeremy. I love the box score links.

You like Jeff Gray? I'd like to see Clete Thomas and Wilkin Ramirez cut loose too. I wouldn't mind another season of Capps and Butera isn't a big problem in my eyes.

Bad news in my view anyway. If there was any club that I'd want to move it would be New Britain. Rochester and Beloit are fine as is and I hope they are renewed.