Twins Game Recap (8/23): Berríos, Bullpen Can’t Hold Baseball’s Worst Offense

yarnivek1972 · August 24, 2019

Couldn't agree more. I was at the game last night on a gorgeous evening, and although disappointed in the result, thoroughly enjoyed watching this entertaining team. Yep, bring on September!

That said, can we please bring on September WITH Byron Buxton. I know his absence is not the only reason for our recent mediocre record, but I seem to notice something in almost every loss that would have been better with Buck in there. Last night it was the slicing double to right that Gonzo couldn't quite get to (don't get me wrong...I like Gonzo...but he's not Kep in RF)...I'm fairly certain Kepler would have caught that ball if he hadn't had to play center in Buck's absence.

The sample size is too big to ignore:

Twins with Buck in the lineup: 56-25 (a .691 percentage...far and away the best in baseball)
Twins with Buck out: 21-26

I still see this team as a contender if Byron can return. But without him, it will be a very short post-season.

Real short. Like not making it short.

USAFChief · August 24, 2019

I get the frustration with losing to the worst team in the league with our supposed "ace" on the mound against a pitcher with a 6+ ERA. But don't sleep on this Verhagen kid. He obviously missed his spots last night a few times, but his double digit strikeouts were legit. He's a big imposing guy on the mound, and easily throws mid-90s with a wipeout slider...striking out...

1) .

That "kid" is almost 29, and has 6 seasons of well below average performance. He's never recorded double digit Ks in a game all the way back through college.

That wasnt good pitching. That was crap hitting.

Riverbrian · August 24, 2019

Ummm...let's expand our minds to second and third order effects. Minor would have actually plugged in as our acting number 1 while B struggled. One of the starters could have gone to the bullpen and potentially facilitated the dumping of Harper or slowed the AAAA express. Minor actually pitching starting innings (7-9) would prevent over usage of the bullpen at least one day......so it could be inevitably used more on the shorter starts of the other pitchers.....and so on and so on.....

I think what you meant to argue is that the Twins really needed was to acquire 2 starters instead of just one at the deadline because 1 may not have been enough so yes...I was incorrect....we should have obtained Stroman and Minor if we were serious (and lets not forget that Stroman did not cost THAT much).

Not taking chances at the trade deadline with our top 10 farm system will haunt like walks

It's hard to say what the prices were. If the prices were indeed too high... then OK.

They have been somewhat aggressive since they walked in the door so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Back in June when we had a huge lead and we were all looking at the trade deadline for playoff enhancement. The majority of our TD posters were focused on the bullpen and that is understandable.

We did need bullpen arms there was no question about it.

However, I believed then and I believe now that a quality starter was a much bigger priority.

Back when we were rolling... Our starters were taking care of the majority of the innings and our offense was driving up huge run differentials. These two things really masked the bullpen situation that eventually came to a conclusion in June with the release of 4 of them.

I believed then... based on how the team was getting the job done. If we lost a starter or two to injury or if a starter or two develop a case of the struggles (See Perez... See Berrios). It would reveal a hole in both the rotation and the pen because the pen would have to pick up the slack.

There are times when I hate being right all the time.

Since I'm not seeing Smeltzer or Dobnak making any starts and it is late August and I'm seeing Thorpe being held silent unless the game is not in doubt.

I fully believe it is the plan of the front office to hold and simply fight through these issues with Berrios and Perez.

This is incredibly risky. It might work out fine... but this is incredibly risky in my opinion.

If the health in the rotation holds (History suggests it won't)... this means that the starting rotation will absorb a lot of innings.

If the health doesn't hold... they will have to turn to someone that they don't have near enough MLB data on... basically bet red and hope the roulette wheel turns up red.

If the health does hold... they will be running low on gas... Right about the time we really really need them... In the playoffs.

Being primarily healthy in the rotation is not lucky. It really isn't.

That said... we can still do this thing. I'll be watching faithfully.

longstrangetrip · August 24, 2019

That "kid" is almost 29, and has 6 seasons of well below average performance. He's never recorded double digit Ks in a game all the way back through college.

That wasnt good pitching. That was crap hitting.

Ha, anyone under 30 is a "kid" to me...heck, maybe under 40!

Anyway, I was lucky to have the front row last night (stubhub can be a beautiful thing), and VerHagen's stuff was quite impressive...downright overpowering. When I looked up his stats online, his lack of success in the minors was surprising given his stuff. It's clear to me his TJ surgery and shoulder issues have held him back. He looked more like the AAA 2018 version of himself last night...51 K's in 32 innings and a 1.65 ERA. The Twins are free swingers, so a guy with good stuff can make them look foolish at times. But I haven't seen anyone make Arraez look foolish all season, and VerHagen did it twice. Yeah, he missed his spot a couple times, and Sano and Cruz made him pay big time. But the rest of the night he was legitimately lights out. I have issues with how three of our pitchers failed against the light-hitting Tigers, but I don't fault our hitters at all (except for perhaps Polanco against Farmer)...VerHagen was scary last night.

AceWrigley · August 24, 2019

On Rodriguez's slam, I guess if you throw the same pitch 4 times in a row at the same speed and the last one with poor location it's going to have a higher probability of being deposited where no one on the field can catch it. Ok, he throws a nice 82 mph curve but for crying out loud, what happened to mixing up your pitches? I'll bet Castro would like to take that one back. 17 hits allowed isn't going to lead to many wins. Here's to hoping the starters can find their mojo again. Go Twins!!

D.C Twins · August 24, 2019

You never know what you're going to get when you trade prospects for a starter, and we don't know what the asking price was for Stroman (Mets gave up a first rounder and a second rounder). But we do know this: since the trade, Stroman has walked 10 and given up 10 earned runs in his 19 innings. Not very good. I'm guessing this board would be pretty unhappy right now if we had given up a recent first and second rounder for that kind of pitching performance.

Minor would have been a terrific pickup, but at what cost? Texas was likely asking for a couple of our top fivers (the fact that Minor was not dealt tells us every GM thought the asking price was too high), and I personally would have been unhappy to see a combo like Graterol/Kiriloff gone in exchange.

Our pitching is troubled right now with Berrios struggling, but I still think the front office did the right thing in not overpaying for pitching help.

Of course you are never promised a successful trade.... but you are also not promised that your prospects are going to be stars....that is why you have to take calculated risks when things are breaking in your favor (ie an 11 game lead in the division).

The FO has to make decisions about their current core. If they like Buck and Polanco at CF and SS, then yeah, maybe you do trade Lewis for pitching. I

If you think Lewis is a superstar in the making then he should be up in the next 1-2 years then maybe you trade Polanco for pitching help....Same analysis for all the other position player prospects in the minors

But the bottom line is that if you want to compete for championships and not sustained above average-ness you have to access well and make hard decisions. And to maximize the current window we need more pitching

howeda7 · August 25, 2019

Minor would not have pushed Berrios out of the starting rotation. Neither would Stroman, or whatever savior one was hoping to be acquired. So last night's game was not affected, whichever way that FO decision went. Why bring it up in a game recap?

Also, with regard to exactly when to pull Berrios last night, look at the spotty outcome from the bullpen when they did get brought in, and ask what difference it would have made in the game. It would have been different, because that's the nature of baseball, but it's not obvious that any choice would have resulted in a win.

Is Berrios tipping his pitches? What is Wes Johnson doing, and are his short-season college-ball tactics getting exposed during the long grind of a major league season? Those are questions I'd rather find answers to.

Not directly. But it would make it easier to pull the trigger on putting Berios on the IL and giving him 10 days off. Nothing excuses the front office refusing to part with any of their top 20 prospects to help this pitching staff.

USAFChief · August 25, 2019

Not directly. But it would make it easier to pull the trigger on putting Berios on the IL and giving him 10 days off. Nothing excuses the front office refusing to part with any of their top 20 prospects to help this pitching staff.

precisely.

howeda7 · August 25, 2019

It's hard to say what the prices were. If the prices were indeed too high... then OK.

They have been somewhat aggressive since they walked in the door so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Back in June when we had a huge lead and we were all looking at the trade deadline for playoff enhancement. The majority of our TD posters were focused on the bullpen and that is understandable.

We did need bullpen arms there was no question about it.

However, I believed then and I believe now that a quality starter was a much bigger priority.

Back when we were rolling... Our starters were taking care of the majority of the innings and our offense was driving up huge run differentials. These two things really masked the bullpen situation that eventually came to a conclusion in June with the release of 4 of them.

I believed then... based on how the team was getting the job done. If we lost a starter or two to injury or if a starter or two develop a case of the struggles (See Perez... See Berrios). It would reveal a hole in both the rotation and the pen because the pen would have to pick up the slack.

There are times when I hate being right all the time.

Since I'm not seeing Smeltzer or Dobnak making any starts and it is late August and I'm seeing Thorpe being held silent unless the game is not in doubt.

I fully believe it is the plan of the front office to hold and simply fight through these issues with Berrios and Perez.

This is incredibly risky. It might work out fine... but this is incredibly risky in my opinion.

If the health in the rotation holds (History suggests it won't)... this means that the starting rotation will absorb a lot of innings.

If the health doesn't hold... they will have to turn to someone that they don't have near enough MLB data on... basically bet red and hope the roulette wheel turns up red.

If the health does hold... they will be running low on gas... Right about the time we really really need them... In the playoffs.

Being primarily healthy in the rotation is not lucky. It really isn't.

That said... we can still do this thing. I'll be watching faithfully.

I was much more the on the Keuchel bandwagon than the Kimbrel bandwagon for this reason. But the bottom line is that they could have added a starter for nothing but $ or they could have used their deep farm system to trade for one. They did neither and are paying the price. We're supposed to wait for next year, when the rotation has one guy set.

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

Not directly. But it would make it easier to pull the trigger on putting Berios on the IL and giving him 10 days off. Nothing excuses the front office refusing to part with any of their top 20 prospects to help this pitching staff.

This is one of the things that irritates the hell out of me.

If a player was traded, all hands on deck. Why didn't the Twins front office make a better offer?

If a player wasn't traded, what exactly are we complaining about? That roughly 12 other teams didn't make an offer good enough to take a player away from their original team?

That tells you something rather important about that player and the team in question.

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

precisely.

So which player did you want to get that wasn't actually traded?

I get the Stroman thing but you actually said you didn't like Stroman just a few weeks ago.

Also, it was reported that Falvine was frustrated that the Jays didn't give the Twins a chance to counter-offer for Stroman before he was traded.

So where exactly do you land in all of this?

howeda7 · August 25, 2019

This is one of the things that irritates the hell out of me.

If a player was traded, all hands on deck. Why didn't the Twins front office make a better offer?

If a player wasn't traded, what exactly are we complaining about? That roughly 12 other teams didn't make an offer good enough to take a player away from their original team?

That tells you something rather important about that player and the team in question.

I don't buy this argument in the case of a guy like Minor. I refuse to believe it would have required some package of Kirloff and Graterol to get him. Stroman was worth more than Minor. So the asking price in all likelihood was a similar package to that or less. We don't know which other teams were interested. Minor is not some ace. But he would have helped this staff a lot.

The bottom line is that this rotation and staff needed help. We have a deep farm system. And we clung to all of our top 20 prospects like grim death and did the absolute minimum to help it.

Edited August 25, 2019 by howeda7

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

I don't buy this argument in the case of a guy like Minor. I refuse to believe it would have required some package of Kirloff and Graterol to get him. Stroman was worth more than Minor. So the asking price in all likelihood was a similar package to that or less. We don't know which other teams were interested. Minor is not some ace. But he would have helped this staff a lot.

Yet Minor went untraded when in EVERY DEADLINE several teams need starters.

Occam's Razor.

You're viewing it in a personal vacuum. You don't think a single other team than the Twins needed a starter? So why did no one land Minor?

USAFChief · August 25, 2019

So which player did you want to get that wasn't actually traded?

I get the Stroman thing but you actually said you didn't like Stroman just a few weeks ago.

Also, it was reported that Falvine was frustrated that the Jays didn't give the Twins a chance to counter-offer for Stroman before he was traded.

So where exactly do you land in all of this?

I gave them a "C" for the trade deadline.

But there is no doubt additional pitching would have been useful.

It's not my job to name the starter they should have acquired. It's their job. They were "frustrated" by Toronto? Come on. Seriously. You honestly believe another GM wouldn't try to top that offer, if he had any reason to believe the Twins were serious? Or is it more likely they were lowballed by the Twins, and that's the reason they didn't bother with a call back? Or maybe they did, and the "frustration" is PR.

Other GMs found a way to get things done. I wish ours had been bolder. Another starter would have been pretty nice. Allowed for more leeway to give our other starters a break, maybe. Like noted above.

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

I gave them a "C" for the trade deadline.

But there is no doubt additional pitching would have been useful.

It's not my job to name the starter they should have acquired. It's their job. They were "frustrated" by Toronto? Come on. Seriously. You honestly believe another GM wouldn't try to top that offer, if he had any reason to believe the Twins were serious? Or is it more likely they were lowballed by the Twins, and that's the reason they didn't bother with a call back? Or maybe they did, and the "frustration" is PR.

Other GMs found a way to get things done. I wish ours had been bolder. Another starter would have been pretty nice. Allowed for more leeway to give our other starters a break, maybe. Like noted above.

I agree they probably should have landed Stroman but this is a human effort. They're allowed to be frustrated when a team pulls the trigger unexpectedly, as the entire Mets/Stroman deal went down.

Do you think the Twins were the only "frustrated" team after that deal? It was almost nonsensical. I guarantee there are a half dozen GMs shaking their heads, thinking "****, we could have done better than that had they given us the chance".

It may not be "your job" to name a good trade but you named a starter you didn't like and now you complain that the team didn't get him.

USAFChief · August 25, 2019

I agree they probably should have landed Stroman but this is a human effort. They're allowed to be frustrated when a team pulls the trigger unexpectedly, as the entire Mets/Stroman deal went down.

Do you think the Twins were the only "frustrated" team after that deal? It was almost nonsensical. I guarantee there are a half dozen GMs shaking their heads, thinking "****, we could have done better than that had they given us the chance".

well, if you believe their story, then Falvine WERE in contact, and they obviously didn't make an offer that topped the Mets offer that got the job done. They lowballed, rather than make a good offer. Toronto hung up the phone and moved on.

So they really have nobody to blame but themselves, no?

And for the record, I didn't bring up Stroman in this conversation, you did.

I simply agreed with the point that another starter would have made it easier to give a guy like Berrios some extra rest.

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

well, if you believe their story, then Falvine WERE in contact, and they obviously didn't make an offer that topped the Mets offer that got the job done. They lowballed, rather than make a good offer.

So they really have nobody to blame but themselves, no?

I mean, maybe, but you didn't like the guy anyway so why do you care?

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

Literally, what you said on May 7th is:

"The Jays can have Gonsalves for Stroman."

So now their "lowball offer" is an affront to the organization and its fans?

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/33021-trade-target-marcus-stroman/page-2?do=findComment&comment=843430

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

Or, "I don't currently like Stroman".

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/34065-article-buyer-beware-avoiding-a-chris-archer-trade/page-6?do=findComment&comment=883029

USAFChief · August 25, 2019

Or, "I don't currently like Stroman".

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/34065-article-buyer-beware-avoiding-a-chris-archer-trade/page-6?do=findComment&comment=883029

brock...I didn't bring up Stroman. You did.

I agreed with a post that said an additional starter would make it easier to rest Berrios. Which is 100 percent true, not to mention another option should they manage to hold onto this ALC lead and make it to a division series.

And after you brought up Falvines "frustration" I said they obviously made a low ball offer. Which they HAD to have made. If they were indeed frustrated, THEY must have liked Stroman, no?

And Thats a lot more important than whether I like him. And I DONT like Stroman, which has nothing to do with wishing the Twins had had the courage to acquire a good starter at the deadline.

Given my drothers, that WOULDNT have been Stroman. I would have liked to see them have the backbone to get Syndergaard. It could have been done, I think. Maybe Greinke. Robbie Ray. Gallen was traded from Miami. I dont know who, but it's not like anyone was asking for the impossible. They supposedly have money, and everyone tells me how strong and deep the farm is. Use it.

Brock Beauchamp · August 25, 2019

brock...I didn't bring up Stroman. You did.

I agreed with a post that said an additional starter would make it easier to rest Berrios. Which is 100 percent true, not to mention another option should they manage to hold onto this ALC lead and make it to a division series.

And after you brought up Falvines "frustration" I said they obviously made a low ball offer. Which they HAD to have made. If they were indeed frustrated, THEY must have liked Stroman, no?

And Thats a lot more important than whether I like him. And I DONT like Stroman, which has nothing to do with wishing the Twins had had the courage to acquire a good starter at the deadline.

So then what stater that was traded would actually have done that?

Because now we’re dealing in pitchers who weren’t actually traded, which makes even less sense than the pitchers who were traded and you didn’t like.

USAFChief · August 25, 2019

So then what stater that was traded would actually have done that?

Because now we’re dealing in pitchers who weren’t actually traded, which makes even less sense than the pitchers who were traded and you didn’t like.

I mentioned 4 in the part of my post you left off.

And again, just because someone wasnt traded, doesnt mean the Twins couldn't have acquired him.

Which is the crux of the situation. Falvine refused to pay the asking price. For starters who WERE traded, and starters who werent. They CHOSE not to add a starter. It was a conscious decision.

Let's hope they survive that decision.

Final thought: the whole "frustrated" by Toronto thing sticks in my craw. Read up on what went into Houston acquiring Verlander. And Greinke. The Houston front office didn't make a call, and then sit back and wait for Detroit to get back to them, or AZ this year. Both of those deals were complicated, tough, and went down to the last minute. But Houston decided they wanted to make those deals happen, and through dogged perseverance and a refusal to give up, found a way to make them both.

What they didn't do was make a half hearted offer and then wait for a call back, and then get a media lapdog to report how frustrated they were.

Riverbrian · August 25, 2019

Of course, I have no idea what it's like in the room but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to assume fairly safely that it has be somewhat chaotic.

I agree with Brock because of free will, takes two to tango. No matter who the Twins are calling, they are most likely holding out for more, while taking phone calls from others and holding out for more while knowing that they have the clock for leverage.

The front office obviously had to know that the team needed a boost on the mound. Hopefully they had to know the need was a significant boost. To suggest that they low-balled, actually suggests a certain ineptness or failure to recognize the need they had.

There are no signs of them being passive in their small sample size of acquisitions, like Terry Ryan was (in my opinion).

So, if they know the need was somewhat acute (they had to... right?) and we can assume that there were probably more buyers than sellers. and in hindsight, like Brock suggests, there were a lot of players simply not traded when a lot of teams were shopping. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the prices must have been way too high.

However, Chief... I'll throw you a bone with a suspicion, that throws a little water on what I just typed.

The players they did acquire... Romo and Dyson. Both have personal histories with the decision makers. Romo with Baldelli (Rays) and Dyson with Lavine (Rangers). It probably means nothing but it does a present a whiff of... I don't know... Cautiousness?

Diaz and Davis were pretty good hitting prospects that they gave up. It's enough for me to wonder, if they were willing to pay the price with a little familiarity in the product.

I hope not.

USAFChief · August 25, 2019

Of course, I have no idea what it's like in the room but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to assume fairly safely that it has be somewhat chaotic.

I agree with Brock because of free will, takes two to tango. No matter who the Twins are calling, they are most likely holding out for more, while taking phone calls from others and holding out for more while knowing that they have the clock for leverage.

The front office obviously had to know that the team needed a boost on the mound. Hopefully they had to know the need was a significant boost. To suggest that they low-balled, actually suggests a certain ineptness or failure to recognize the need they had.

They basically admitted to lowballing Toronto when they said they were frustrated they didn't get the chance to up their offer...to beat an offer by the Mets that almost everyone, including Brock, has said was surprisingly low.

Unless you believe the Twins offered more, and Toronto decided to take the lesser offer.

Falvine can't have been frustrated unless they made a low offer to begin with.

Mike Sixel · August 25, 2019

It is their job to make the team better, not Chief's. They acted just like the last regime, trading meh prospects away, but keeping the best ones.

The exact opposite of Houston. So, yes, exactly what many of us said would happen. The window is wide open, and they added two ok relief pitchers.

But at least they didn't spend money on Keuchel, or top prospects on anyone. So the window can open again, only to allow them to do the same thing again and again.

Riverbrian · August 25, 2019

They basically admitted to lowballing Toronto when they said they were frustrated they didn't get the chance to up their offer...to beat an offer by the Mets that almost everyone, including Brock, has said was surprisingly low.

Unless you believe the Twins offered more, and Toronto decided to take the lesser offer.

Falvine can't have been frustrated unless they made a low offer to begin with.

I have no idea what happened... but tell me if you could imagine this following scenario to be at least possible.

Twins are talking with the Blue Jays about Stroman. The Jays are asking for Kiriloff but haven't said no to what the Twins are asking the Jays to consider which is Duran plus Enlow.

At the same time... Twins are also talking with the Mets about Syndergaard. The Mets are asking for Buxton. The Twins are offering Kiriloff and Duran and the Mets like those players but want Graterol added to the deal and The Twins ask if that would get the deal done. The Mets reply with that sounds good but I'm still talking with the Padres so give Buxton some more thought because that will get the deal done.

The Padres really want Syndergaard and they think they are offering a fair package, that is similar to what the Twins are offering... let say Renfroe and Gore. The Mets are asking for Tatis and hoping either the Padres or Twins cave.

Meanwhile the Blue Jays are sticking with asking for Kiriloff but the Twins can't trade Kiriloff yet because Kiriloff is part of a package that the Mets are considering for Syndergaard and the Twins would rather have Syndergaard so trading for Stroman would kill the Syndergaard deal and they don't really want to give up Kiriloff if they don't have to. The Twins also can't commit to Duran to the Jays since he is part of the Sydergaard deal. So they tell the Blue Jays... do me a favor... give me a call back if you are close to making a deal... maybe we can sweeten this thing and they wait for a call from the Mets.

Meanwhile... A scout in the Blue Jays system really likes a couple pitchers in the Mets system and convinces the Jays GM that it would be a good exchange for Stroman. The Jays run their reports and they feel that it's an equal value to the Twins Duran/Enlow offer. The Jays call the Twins again and ask for Kiriloff and the Twins need to hear back from the Mets. So the Blue Jays call the Mets and ask if they would trade Kay and Woods-Richardson for Stroman.

The Mets think about it and agree. It was the Blue Jays offer so the agreement is in place.

The Mets after receiving Stroman decide that the rotation is looking promising for 2020 and pull Syndergaard off the table.

The Twins finally get a chance to talk with the Blue Jays after it's all over and say... I told you I could sweeten the deal if you called back.

I'm sure it happened differently but is a scenario like that possible?

Doomtints · August 25, 2019

I've been saying all year ... the Twins have an easy schedule down the stretch but they have to take these games seriously.

If the Twins think they can coast through these divisional games to close out the season and still outpace Cleveland, they somehow have not been paying attention to the only division they have ever been in for the past couple of decades.

If the Twins show up and do what they do, they'll finish well. If they think these games will all be automatic wins and they don't have to put in the work, they are mistaken.

To me this seems like a good time for the pitchers to work on getting smarter and to start playing defense....

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