Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • Twins News & Analysis

    Tunnels And The Hall: Mauer and Santana


    Ted Schwerzler

    With a slow offseason thus far, especially for the Minnesota Twins, the main talking points have resided around the Hall of Fame ballots made public thus far. Ryan Thibodaux (@NotMrTibbs) continues to run an incredible tracker on Twitter, and so far for Minnesotans, there’s a disappointing development. Johan Santana is going to be one and done when it comes to The Hall.

    Image courtesy of © Jeffrey Becker-USA TODAY Sports

    Twins Video

    As of this writing, 72 ballots have been made public (or roughly 17% of the total vote). The former Twins ace has yet to garner a single nod, and while I’d hope he gets at least a few, it’s all but certain he’ll fall below the necessary 5% to get a second go-round. While it’s fair for the argument to be made that he’s simply not a Hall of Famer, that argument has always been based on longevity, or its lack.

    From 2002-2010, Johan Santana was arguably the best pitcher in baseball. He compiled a 2.90 ERA with over 1,780 strikeouts in 1,779.0 IP. He picked up four All-Star appearances while winning two (should have been three, Bartolo) Cy Young awards. Across the entirety of Twins history, he is arguably the greatest starting pitcher to ever put on the uniform. This tale however isn’t one pushing for his enshrinement, as we know too well how it ends.

    Santana missed the 2011 season, returned with the New York Mets in 2012, and tried numerous comeback attempts following that season. His career was done in by injuries, and his career of 12 big league seasons was brought to an end by those injuries.

    When looking at enshrinement, Santana’s case is always argued alongside a current Hall of Famer known as The Left Arm of God. Sandy Koufax pitched just 12 years as well, while winning three Cy Young awards and an MVP. His career 2.76 ERA bests Santana (3.20) and he reached the 2,000 K plateau (2,396) while Johan did not (1,988). When the dust settles it appears that a lack of longevity (due to health issues) will be what causes an end to any hope for a plaque.

    On the other side of the coin, it’s intriguing to look at the polar opposite case that current Minnesota Twins first basemen Joe Mauer will present to the voters in a number of years. Reading through Jay Jaffe’s Cooperstown Case Book, it couldn’t be any clearer that the JAWS system suggest he should be a lock for Cooperstown. Jaffe himself is of the opinion that on merits alone, Mauer has a place in upstate New York, but it comes with a single caveat. Where Santana’s tunnel was too short, the question for Mauer will be whether or not his was too long.

    As a catcher, Mauer may have arguably been the greatest of all time. Through a decade, Mauer owned a .323/.405/.468 slash line while picking up six All-Star Game appearances, five Silver Sluggers, three Gold Gloves, and an MVP. He also is the only catcher to win multiple batting titles (three), and was the first to do so since 1942 (only AL catcher to ever accomplish the feat).

    In his ten years as a catcher, Mauer posted a 43.1 fWAR. That mark ranks 20th all- time, with an average yearly value of 4.13 fWAR. Applying that number to his 14-year career, he’d be staring at a 60.3 fWAR (as opposed to 48.1 fWAR), which would put him eighth all-time, of catchers. Of the seven ahead of him, only Mike Piazza played fewer than 17 seasons, and all of the names included (Torre, Piazza, Berra, Fisk, Rodriguez, Carter, and Bench) are enshrined.

    When looking at Mauer, it’s relatively hard to predict how he’ll be received on the ballot. His time at first base, following the brain injury that forced him from behind the plate, has been far from noteworthy. Despite the metrics suggesting him as a lock for a Gold Glove in 2017 (making him just the third player ever to win one at multiple positions, and first former catcher), he was snubbed, not even being considered a finalist. While Gold Gloves hold little merit in most realms, they are a counting factor among Hall of Fame debates. With a year left on his contract, and limited time following, it’ll be hard for him to generate any noteworthy statistic in his new role.

    By the time Mauer is welcomed onto the ballot, likely by 2024, the BBWAA voting contingent will look significantly different. As MLB.com writers have been ushered in, as well as a younger demographic overall, it will be interesting to see in what regard the Twins great is held. He could be heralded for his performance behind the plate, or he could be diminished for his time spent in decline playing a new role.

    A plaque in the Hall of Fame is the ultimate goal for a major league baseball player. An acknowledgement that you’ve made it as one of the best to ever play the game, there’s no overstating how powerful that moment must be for a ballplayer. When retroactively viewing careers, it’s an interesting and difficult decision to decipher between what may be too little (Santana) and what may be too much (Mauer). The tunnel of time spent in the big leagues could hardly be more polar opposite for the two potential Hall-of-Famers, but they may end up seeing their detractors lead them to the same fate.

    As Santana finds himself ushered off the ballot, fans from Twins Territory will be looking for their next great to latch onto. 2011 represents the enshrinement of Bert Blyleven, following a lengthy campaign, and hope for who’s next may rest on Mauer’s laurels. We won’t know how this story plays out for some time, but in 2017, we’ve seen how the flip side has been viewed.

    Follow Twins Daily For Minnesota Twins News & Analysis

    Recent Twins Articles

    Recent Twins Videos

    Twins Top Prospects

    Marek Houston

    Cedar Rapids Kernels - A+, SS
    The 22-year-old went 2-for-5 on Friday night, his fourth straight multi-hit game. Heading into the week, he was hitting .246/.328/.404 (.732). Four games later, he is hitting .303/.361/.447 (.808).

    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

    Ernie Banks was the face of the Cubs for years. He was an incredibly popular player.

     

    Banks's stats check all the boxes for HOF consideration.

     

    His career was longer than Mauer's will be.

     

    I'm not sure how one could compare Mauer to Banks in any shape or form. One may as well compare Mauer to Babe Ruth.

     

    Ernie Banks was the face of the Cubs for years. He was an incredibly popular player.

     

    Banks's stats check all the boxes for HOF consideration.

     

    His career was longer than Mauer's will be.

     

    I'm not sure how one could compare Mauer to Banks in any shape or form. One may as well compare Mauer to Babe Ruth.

    Yeah, but did Ernie Banks have one of these?

     

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qp-alJ6_OHg/S9bFbV5bGsI/AAAAAAAAD5Y/oNsO1PD2DJo/s1600/Joe%20Mauer%20Quick%20Swing%20Baseball%20Training%20Machine.jpg

     

    Any thesis supporting someone for induction to the HOF, which has 'what ifs' as its major arguments, it is a detriment to that player's candidacy.

     

    Johan Santana and Joe Mauer were dominant for about 5-6 seasons each.

     

    That's not a hall of fame career.    Santana's and Mauer's career kinda mirror Doc Gooden's and Dale Murphy's / Don Mattingly's.  With those guys out of the Hall plus others like Dave Parker, Mike Mussina, etc out of the Hall, Santana and Mauer, just does not deserve it.

     

     

    Considering Mauer already has a higher bWAR (53.4 v 46.2) & fWAR (48.1 v 44.3) than Dale Murphy in 4 less seasons, I'm not sure it's a great comp. If Mauer adds another 5-6 WAR in the next 2-3 seasons that's a pretty significant difference.

     

    Mattingly played the same number of seasons as Joe (to this point), but Mauer again was better: (53.4 v 42.2 bWAR; 48.1 v 40.7 fWAR). Beyond that Mauer is still likely to keep playing for another few years to add to his total. After last season do you really expect him to put up negatives? 

     

    the narrative is different as well: After being the consensus best catcher in the game, Mauer was forced to change positions because of injury and turned himself into a fine defensive 1B while still continuing to get on base at an elite level through walks and line drives. with Murphy the narrative is more like: after being one of the best CF in the game, Murphy turned 31 and went into a rapid and steep decline that he never recovered from. Mattingly: after an amazing start to his career, Mattingly became an average to above average starter in the league before injuries wiped out the real decline phase of his career.

     

    remember, mauer was having another outstanding season at catcher in 2013, before the brain injury forced the position change a few years earlier than anyone would have liked. The hardware for them might be pretty similar, but the production really isn't. (and how much extra did Murphy get for playing on TBS and Mattingly for being a goddamn Yankee? That really mattered for awards back then; it's normed out somewhat now.)

     

    Mauer had more dominant seasons than Mattingly, about the same as Murphy. Murphy never recovered once he fell from the heights and wasn't a good player at all his last 4 seasons; Mauer is still a productive player. Mattingly wasn't even a player at this point.

     

    That said, both Murphy and Mattingly have gotten real consideration for the Hall; both spent 15 years on the ballot. Mauer is better than both and should make the Hall when his time comes. 

     

     

     

    Yeah, but did Ernie Banks have one of these?

     

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qp-alJ6_OHg/S9bFbV5bGsI/AAAAAAAAD5Y/oNsO1PD2DJo/s1600/Joe%20Mauer%20Quick%20Swing%20Baseball%20Training%20Machine.jpg

     

    Interesting product. I'm not sure how it would help. If you watch this video, the guy starts his swing before the ball appears. He starts swinging based on the sound. You could literally do this with your eyes closed once you figured out the timing.

    Maybe Mauer's shades are just a little too dark? :o

     


      Edited by Doomtints

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mauerjo01.shtml

    Of the 5 HOF predictors,Mauer is a predicted in only 1. Along with Santana, his best hope is a Veteran's committee. I think it's very difficult to see him getting enough votes from the writers.

    If that were the standard few catchers would make it. Johnny Bench hits only two on the five predictors and he is the top ranked catcher. Mauer ranks as the number 7 catcher.

    If that were the standard few catchers would make it. Johnny Bench hits only two on the five predictors and he is the top ranked catcher. Mauer ranks as the number 7 catcher.

    Only a few catchers do make if to the HOF,and Mauer caught less than a 1000 games and will probably end his career playing less than half his games as a catcher. Banking on just the JAWS formula feels like a long shot.

    Ultimately, it's not up to me whether or not he is in the Hall of Fame, but in the case of Joe Mauer, I think Ted boiled it down pretty good. If he is viewed as a catcher first and foremost, it's tough to keep him out.

    Of course, I think we have started to learn lately that a good story will get you into the hall of fame, i.e. the argument that the Hall of Fame is a museum that tells the story of baseball. Yes, you have the statistical acumen of your Nolan Ryans and Hank Aarons, but also, Jack Morris and Kirby Puckett are in the hall of fame in large part because of their contribution to a narrative. In that regard, I think Mauer, the face of a franchise for over a decade, also earns some points. Santana? Who knows. There are a lot more good pitchers than good catchers, and it's tough to find the story that would get him in. 




    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an account

    Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

    Register a new account

    Sign in

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...