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    Position Battle: 4th & 5th Starters


    Nick Nelson

    The Twins have a firmly established trio of starters in place that they will build around. Barring injuries, you can bet that Ervin Santana, Phil Hughes and Kyle Gibson will all be in the rotation when Minnesota heads to Baltimore to open the season in April.

    Behind them, things are unsettled.

    Image courtesy of Jesse Johnson, USA Today

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    After spending every recent offseason exhaustively searching all avenues for starting pitching help, Terry Ryan and the Twins have refreshingly been able to abstain this winter. Even with Mike Pelfrey departing and no significant additions coming aboard, there will be plenty of quality competition in-house for the final two spots.

    In 2015, the Twins had nine different players make starts, and that was their lowest total in four years. Chances are, every pitcher listed below will get his chance at some point this year, so the composition of the group that goes north only matters so much.

    In some ways, as we'll discuss, the club is actually incentivized not to carry their best talent from the very start of the regular season.

    By all accounts, though, the decision-makers are keeping an open mind about those available rotation spots, which should lead to some heated competition in March. This is undoubtedly by design.

    Let's take a look at the contenders that will be making their cases.

    Why Tommy Milone Will Win A Job

    With his low velocity and middling strikeout rates, Milone doesn't get a ton of love from the sabermetric crowd, but he has been a reliably solid back-of-the-rotation starter and there is value in that.

    The Twins settled with Milone on a $4.5 million salary for this season, and that's not the kind of money you pay for a reliever who has almost no experience pitching out of the bullpen. Be assured, the team is heading into camp with designs on him as a starter, just as they did last spring when the job was his to lose in a competition that included Trevor May, Alex Meyer and Mike Pelfrey.

    That is, no small part, because Milone is the lone left-hander in this entire picture.

    It's not an overriding factor, and if he looks flat-out crummy in camp or is blatantly surpassed by others, I could see Milone heading to the bullpen. But he's as close to a lock as you'll find on this list.

    Why Tyler Duffey Will Win A Job

    He earned it. With the way Duffey responded after being called up to the majors last August, the Twins will be hard-pressed not to put him in the rotation. Following a rough outing in a brutal match-up at Toronto for his MLB debut, Duffey went 5-0 with a 2.25 ERA in his final nine starts, and Minnesota went 8-1 in those games.

    During his introduction to the highest level, the right-hander checked all the boxes. He attacked the strike zone. He pitched deep into games. He missed bats and kept the ball in the park. Duffey deployed his spectacular curveball with deadly effectiveness and out-pitched all of his peers in the rotation.

    There are question marks attached to the 25-year-old hurler, however. Ultimately, 10 starts is still a small sample size and Duffey still has only 17 total starts at Triple-A. As good as he was in the minors last year, his long-term track record isn't quite as impressive, especially when it comes to strikeouts.

    And there is this: Duffey is essentially a two-pitch guy. He threw his fastball or curve 98 percent of the time as a rookie with the Twins. Some can make that work as a starter, but most don't. As Twins Daily community member gopherman23 recently pointed out, the righty's 39.8 percent usage rate with the hook was the highest in the majors since 2002.

    Could the Twins send Duffey back to the minors to work on polishing a third pitch?

    Why Ricky Nolasco Will Win A Job

    The obvious (and perhaps unsatisfactory) answer is that he's being paid $12 million this year and next. Twins officials have made it pretty clear that decisions regarding Nolasco won't be dictated by the money he's owed, but you can bet he will be given every chance to earn it.

    And he deserves that much. I realize that damn near every Twins fan is incredibly down on the veteran righty, understandably so, but the truth is that he has never had a sustained opportunity to show what he can do here while fully healthy. Both of his seasons in Minnesota have been marred by injury. Last year in limited duty he put up a 3.51 FIP and struck out 35 batters in 37 innings, so there is something to build on there.

    Compared to others on this list, Nolasco simply has no case based on his accomplishments with this team. He has an uphill battle in that regard, but I do think that if he's sharp in spring training the Twins will be inclined to jump him ahead in line because he can't be sent to the minors and he offers little in the bullpen other than long relief.

    And, yeah, they're paying him quite a bit of money to start games.

    Why Jose Berrios Will Win A Job

    He may very well be the most talented pitcher on this list, and the only one with true "ace" potential. Berrios obliterated the highest levels of the minors last year and was in position for a late-season call-up, though the Twins ultimately decided to pass.

    There is almost zero question that he is ready to pitch in the majors. His supremacy over Triple-A hitters in July and August left little doubt. But by starting him back in Rochester and waiting even a few weeks to call him up, the Twins stand to push back his free agency clock and gain a full extra year of team control down the line. Given that Berrios will be 27 – the midst of his theoretical prime – in six years, that extra season could be extremely valuable.

    Of course, this all becomes somewhat moot if the Twins lock him up with a contract extension at some point. And while there is a reasonable and logical argument against bringing him north regardless of how he performs, if he truly transcends the competition it's going to be a hard sell sending him back to a level that he has already mastered.

    Berrios, and the decisions surrounding him, will easily be among the most compelling storylines to follow this spring.

    Why Trevor May Will Win A Job

    He is as qualified as anybody. May was a good prospect as a starting pitcher rising through the minors and broke through last year with a strong first-half performance in the Twins rotation before circumstances forced him to the bullpen.

    Circumstances, unfortunately, continue to work against the young right-hander. His performance after shifting to relief was so impressive that it evidently convinced the Twins to bypass the relief market this offseason while viewing May as one of their core pieces at the back end of the bullpen.

    That means May's chances of winning a starting job, or even being a legit contender for one, are low. It would likely take injuries to more than one other guy on this list for the Twins to rearrange their plans so dramatically. They simply need May in the late innings.

    Others In The Mix: Taylor Rogers, Pat Dean, Alex Meyer

    With the five pitchers above vying for two spots, there isn't much of an opening for these fringe outsiders.

    Rogers and Dean were both added to the 40-man roster after impressive campaigns at Rochester last year, and they gain some extra points for being lefties. Meyer was ranked as one of the organization's best pitching prospects as recently as a year ago, but there have always been serious questions about his ability to remain a starter and his trainwreck 2015 season may have been the final straw pushing him to a reliever designation.

    All in all, though, the Twins have more quality starting pitching depth in place than they've had in at least half a decade. They really need one or two guys to step up and take over at the front of the rotation, but it's hugely refreshing to see such a wide array of hurlers in the mix with no Mike Pelfrey or Kevin Correia types clogging things up.

    More help is on the way, too, in the form of rising young arms like Stephen Gonsalves, Kohl Stewart and Tyler Jay.

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    Only one poster in this thread has called winning the WS the only measure of success.

    And it's not Mike.

    //sorry, Mike, perhaps I shouldn't speak for you//

    Yep. I would say there's a pretty big delta in wanting to win as many games as possible this year, and anything short of a WS title is a failure. 

    Except, by definition, you probably didn't win "as many as possible" if you lost. Almost certainly you could have traded more or spent more money to have achieved that end.

     

    But I might suggest a more rational idea is to suggest that there be some nuance. You know, like the kind not granted to those willing to perhaps lose a few games in the short term to help invest in the development of the long term.

    Not to get us back on topic :)

     

    But I have to think  that (assuming there are no injury issues) someone gets traded this spring. I do agree that it isn't as likely as it should be, but plenty of teams need pitching help, and we have 7 capable starters with an 8th 1 year away from having to be on the 40 man.  You can play an options game with Duffey, but I just don't see a scenario where one or both of Milone or Nolasco is with the team by June.  Nolasco b/c quite frankly he's been bad and should be on a short leash, and Milone b/c he is what he is (though to be fair to Tommy, he's been pretty consistent in outperforming his peripherals for his entire career).  If there aren't injury issues, I have to think someone would be more than happy to take Tommy off of our hands, and give us a nice prospect too.

     

    Going back to May, this is that whole short term/long term thing. He led the team in WAR up until the point he was demoted, and was pretty much lights out that month too.  I think you have to look at his projectibility in the rotation as he could be a solid #2 for quite some time. To a lesser extent, that's Gibson as well (as his K rate took a big move in the right direction last season)... but that would hurt us in the short term (the pen in particular) for a much more valuable asset long term. We're pretty much stuck with Hughes and Santana (though in both cases, we probably won't feel 'stuck' with one or both next season).  That leaves the last spot to whom I'd put Duffey... again, more projectibility there. 

     

    That's not how it will happen though.

     

    What it should be:  Santana, Hughes, Gibson, May, Duffey

    What it will be: Santana, Hughes, Gibson, Nolasco, Milone

     

    Only one poster in this thread has called winning the WS the only measure of success.

    And it's not Mike.

    //sorry, Mike, perhaps I shouldn't speak for you//

    If it's me whom you are referencing feel free to use my user name. However, I'd prefer to be quoted accurately. That's not what I said. Here's the quote: "However, last time I checked the goal in MLB is to win the WS. So the postseason is in fact a more important measure than the regular season."

    This does not mean that I think the goal is to win the WS every year. That's an unrealistic, unsustainable and highly risky path to follow. A few franchises have the means to do that, maybe the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers, but even those teams can't do it every year because there are simply too many intangibles in baseball. The means to the end of winning the WS (IMHO) is to assemble a consistently good roster and hope that, from time to time, the cards fall just right and a World Championship can be won. In those years where enhancements can be made without mortgaging the future I'm all for it. The Twins were not at that point last year nor are they at that point this year unless we get outlier-type performances from quite a few players.

     

    If it's me whom you are referencing feel free to use my user name. However, I'd prefer to be quoted accurately. That's not what I said. Here's the quote: "However, last time I checked the goal in MLB is to win the WS. So the postseason is in fact a more important measure than the regular season."

    This does not mean that I think the goal is to win the WS every year.

    Except you used the 2015 Blue Jays and 2001 Mariners as examples of failure. And the reason they were failures, you said, was because they didn't win the world series. And you talked about the 29 GMs who fail every year.

     

    So, yeah, you did say throughout a few posts that if the GM/Team doesn't win the W Series, they failed.   

    Edited by jimmer

    If it's me whom you are referencing feel free to use my user name. However, I'd prefer to be quoted accurately. That's not what I said. Here's the quote: "However, last time I checked the goal in MLB is to win the WS. So the postseason is in fact a more important measure than the regular season."

    This does not mean that I think the goal is to win the WS every year. That's an unrealistic, unsustainable and highly risky path to follow. A few franchises have the means to do that, maybe the Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers, but even those teams can't do it every year because there are simply too many intangibles in baseball. The means to the end of winning the WS (IMHO) is to assemble a consistently good roster and hope that, from time to time, the cards fall just right and a World Championship can be won. In those years where enhancements can be made without mortgaging the future I'm all for it. The Twins were not at that point last year nor are they at that point this year unless we get outlier-type performances from quite a few players.

    If only a few franchises have the means to assemble the roster to consistently pursue a WS title, how are the Twins to "assemble a consistently good roster"? One good enough, for long enough, that from time to time the cards fall right?

     

    You seem to be arguing against yourself.

     

    I actually agree with you, by the way. I too want to assemble a roster good enough to win a WS. I just don't think that happens by punting years, and positions. Try to win now, AND next year. Every year.

     

    That wouldn't hurt Buxton at all.

     

    If only a few franchises have the means to assemble the roster to consistently pursue a WS title, how are the Twins to "assemble a consistently good roster"? One good enough, for long enough, that from time to time the cards fall right?

    You seem to be arguing against yourself.

    I actually agree with you, by the way. I too want to assemble a roster good enough to win a WS. I just don't think that happens by punting years, and positions. Try to win now, AND next year. Every year.

    That wouldn't hurt Buxton at all.

    I apologize for not being clear.

    Teams like the Yankees can sign free agents at their peak years. This requires overspending. They have the resources to retool every year and go for it.

    It's simply not feasible for the Twins to take that approach. What I envision when I talk about a consistently good roster is something like what Cleveland did in the '90's, specifically drafting and developing enough good young talent to sustain a multi-year run of above-average play.

    For the Twins to succeed they have to get the most out of their draftees. This takes time and patience. Baseball players take a long time to develop from draftee to major leaguer. Players can be ruined by trying to move them too fast.

    Watch out for Mister In-Between.

     

    Hughes, Nolasco and Milone could provide a back end of the rotation that never sees 94mph on a fastball. The underwhelming power of these guys could brighten the day of hitters looking to break out of slumps. Meanwhile the Twins relegate their second best horse (May) to the pen and their best ace prospect Berrios to AAA to beat up on some more hapless minor leaguers, which is like sending a NASCAR contender to driver's ed. And the guy with the best curve ball on the team to the bullpen. Is any of that supposed to help the team win??

     

    What's especially galling is that when you invert that plan and put Hughes, Nolasco and Milone in the pen, you might actually get the first two to add a few precious mph to their heaters, while keeping them in reserve for spot starts. 

     

    A starting ro of Santana, Gibson, May, Duffey, Berrios provides lots of chances to go 6 or more innings, plus hotter, more dependable middle relief (and Meyer's big heater) for later in games. All the advantages seem to come by putting your vets in the pen, where their heaters can see a minor resurgence, and you save their arms for later in the season, like a spot start from a daisy fresh Phil Hughes in a playoff game.

     

    Meanwhile, if one of the young guns falters, you've still got your veterans to fall back on. 

    Edited by jimbo92107

     

     

    Meanwhile, if one of the young guns falters, you've still got your veterans to fall back on. 

     

    This a fine idea in theory.  It makes sense, and has benefits.  At the same time, the opposite argument also makes sense, that you can rely on your veterans, and if one falters, you've got young studs to plug in.  Young players have options, veterans don't.  Young players can be sent down, veterans must be sent to the DL with an imaginary injury.  There are merits to going young or going with experience.  I have doubts about May's ability to sustain his level of success in either role, although he seems to be learning to pitch a bit.  I'd move Meyer back to starting since he's seemingly lost some zip on his fastball and break on his breaking ball.  He's still a big strong kid, and if he can re-learn his craft and learn to mix spins and speeds, the rotation is a more likely landing spot.  Berrios will force his way in soon enough.  Bringing him up immediately simply isn't necessary.  Duffey forced his way in last year, and is 50/50 in my mind to do it again.  No matter which direction you go, it's nice to have actual quality options compared to prior years.  

     

     

    This a fine idea in theory.  It makes sense, and has benefits.  At the same time, the opposite argument also makes sense, that you can rely on your veterans, and if one falters, you've got young studs to plug in.  Young players have options, veterans don't.  Young players can be sent down, veterans must be sent to the DL with an imaginary injury.  There are merits to going young or going with experience.  I have doubts about May's ability to sustain his level of success in either role, although he seems to be learning to pitch a bit.  I'd move Meyer back to starting since he's seemingly lost some zip on his fastball and break on his breaking ball.  He's still a big strong kid, and if he can re-learn his craft and learn to mix spins and speeds, the rotation is a more likely landing spot.  Berrios will force his way in soon enough.  Bringing him up immediately simply isn't necessary.  Duffey forced his way in last year, and is 50/50 in my mind to do it again.  No matter which direction you go, it's nice to have actual quality options compared to prior years.  

    I agree that the Twins this year appear to have better options at pitcher no matter how they distribute them. I'm a bit more optimistic than you appear to be about Duffey, who I think could be a star. I'm actually less optimistic about Meyer, who is starting to look to me like a complete bust. He fell apart last season as soon as he had a base runner, and that doesn't bode well for a tall guy with control issues. Trevor May on the other hand is I think going to be an innings horse if they make him a starter. May is one of those guys that absorbs lessons and techniques from other guys he watches, and that's a great trait in a young pitcher. His poise on the mound has improved greatly, and that includes his delivery from the set, which is MUCH better than when I first saw him. Obviously Berrios has to prove himself at the major league level, but I have little doubt he can be effective. His status depends on how the veterans look in spring training. If Hughes and/or Nolasco looks bad or lacks velocity, a spot opens up for Berrios. 

    Edited by jimbo92107



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