Keith Law and his thoughts on Kyle Gibson PART DEUX

[Brock Beauchamp]

Now all the front office needs to do is uncover a breakthrough in cloning technology.

 

They did about five years ago, but sadly it only works with Carlos Silva.

 

Fantastic.

[ThePuck]

If I'm the Twins, I start him in Rochester for two reasons: they want to limit his innings, and to not start the clock on his service time. Bring him up in June or whatever the timeframe is and we get an extra year of control, which could be huge if he turns out to be a quality MLB starter.

 

Two things,

1) The Twins will still count his AAA innings. He'll be on a 130-150 inning limit and it won't matter where he throws those innings.

2) He's 25. We'll have control of him through his age 31 season, no matter what.

 

I believe that's another reason the Twins are, IN MY OPINION, a bit slow to promote...wait till they are 24, 25 (or older), you get all their prime years...it's a business thing.

[gunnarthor]

If I'm the Twins, I start him in Rochester for two reasons: they want to limit his innings, and to not start the clock on his service time. Bring him up in June or whatever the timeframe is and we get an extra year of control, which could be huge if he turns out to be a quality MLB starter.

 

Two things,

1) The Twins will still count his AAA innings. He'll be on a 130-150 inning limit and it won't matter where he throws those innings.

2) He's 25. We'll have control of him through his age 31 season, no matter what.

 

I believe that's another reason the Twins are, IN MY OPINION, a bit slow to promote...wait till they are 24, 25 (or older), you get all their prime years...it's a business thing.

 

Maybe. But in fairness to the Twins, Gibson would've been called up at 23 if he hadn't needed TJ surgery.

[ThePuck]

 

Maybe. But in fairness to the Twins, Gibson would've been called up at 23 if he hadn't needed TJ surgery.

.

 

Probably...but out of pure necessity (like they did with Revere)...not because it was the ideal time to do so. Gibson's numbers weren't overwhelming though. On the bright side, the old reliable excuse of defense not being up to par as an excuse to keep a player down is harder to use for pitchers. Garza was another that flew up...but then got in hot water cause he was a strikeout pitcher and he didn't want to conform to the pitching style we have :-)

 

There are some people who are always eager to give the Twins management the benefit of the doubt...not saying you are one, but there are some that just purely find a way to defend team's management to the bitter end. How can anyone not see that there's obviously something wrong with the drafting, development and philosophy of pitching we have (the philosophy being what drives the type we've drafted and how we've developed them)

[Brock Beauchamp]

There are some people who are always eager to give the Twins management the benefit of the doubt...not saying you are one, but there are some that just purely find a way to defend team's management to the bitter end. How can anyone not see that there's obviously something wrong with the drafting, development and philosophy of pitching we have (the philosophy being what drives the type we've drafted and how we've developed them)

 

Who on Twins Daily defends the Twins' drafting and development of pitching? I sure haven't seen 'em.

[gunnarthor]

There are some people who are always eager to give the Twins management the benefit of the doubt...not saying you are one, but there are some that just purely find a way to defend team's management to the bitter end. How can anyone not see that there's obviously something wrong with the drafting, development and philosophy of pitching we have (the philosophy being what drives the type we've drafted and how we've developed them)

 

Clearly, the team did something right. Jim Callis of BA ranked the Twins minor league system the 3rd best of the 2000s. No one is perfect but I'm more of the cyclical camp than anything else. You draft low every year and ownership puts financial muzzles in place, it'll eventually affect you.

 

As to pitching, the team did change course when Deron Johnson took over the drafts. He drafted a lot of hard throwers where Radcliffe might have drafted focusing more on control guys. It's still open to see whether that change was good. However, the idea that the Twins are scared of strike out pitchers is absurdly stupid.

[ThePuck]

As to pitching, the team did change course when Deron Johnson took over the drafts. He drafted a lot of hard throwers where Radcliffe might have drafted focusing more on control guys. It's still open to see whether that change was good. However, the idea that the Twins are scared of strike out pitchers is absurdly stupid.

 

I don't remember saying anything about them being scared of strikeout pitchers. I find it absurdly stupid you read what I wrote and thought that's what I said.

 

I will say this though. Strikeout pitchers are more expensive to draft and keep if they work out...pitch to contact guys are, for the most part, less expensive...and you need to have strong defenders behind them...say, glove first guys in the middle infield...the inexpensive type of middle IFs...The kind of players a team under a budget would target.

 

And the team did do something right in the early part of the 2000s...that's nice...that was then. I'm referring to now...

[ThePuck]

There are some people who are always eager to give the Twins management the benefit of the doubt...not saying you are one, but there are some that just purely find a way to defend team's management to the bitter end. How can anyone not see that there's obviously something wrong with the drafting, development and philosophy of pitching we have (the philosophy being what drives the type we've drafted and how we've developed them)

 

Who on Twins Daily defends the Twins' drafting and development of pitching? I sure haven't seen 'em.

 

See the post right below yours

[Brock Beauchamp]

There are some people who are always eager to give the Twins management the benefit of the doubt...not saying you are one, but there are some that just purely find a way to defend team's management to the bitter end. How can anyone not see that there's obviously something wrong with the drafting, development and philosophy of pitching we have (the philosophy being what drives the type we've drafted and how we've developed them)

 

Who on Twins Daily defends the Twins' drafting and development of pitching? I sure haven't seen 'em.

 

See the post right below yours

 

Yeah, I don't see him defending anything there... Just stating that low draft picks and finances may have had something to do with the Twins' current woes.

 

And he's right in one regard: repeating that the Twins hate strikeout pitchers is absurd.

[ThePuck]

 

And he's right in one regard: repeating that the Twins hate strikeout pitchers is absurd.

 

He didn't say hate. And I didn't say hate either. I said financially it makes more sense not to get them..and I explained why.

 

and this isn't defending them? 'Clearly, the team did something right. Jim Callis of BA ranked the Twins minor league system the 3rd best of the 2000s.'

[Brock Beauchamp]

As to pitching, the team did change course when Deron Johnson took over the drafts. He drafted a lot of hard throwers where Radcliffe might have drafted focusing more on control guys. It's still open to see whether that change was good. However, the idea that the Twins are scared of strike out pitchers is absurdly stupid.

 

I don't remember saying anything about them being scared of strikeout pitchers. I find it absurdly stupid you read what I wrote and thought that's what I said.

 

But... but... you just said:

 

...but then got in hot water cause he was a strikeout pitcher and he didn't want to conform to the pitching style we have.

 

So they're not "scared" of them, they don't "hate" them, they just draft them and then try to change them?

 

Does not compute.

 

Also, Matt Garza is not a strikeout pitcher unless you consider Scott Baker a strikeout pitcher as well.

[ThePuck]

anyway, we aren't getting anywhere...when stupid comes out, it's obvious minds are closed to other people's points of view...

 

Clearly the team does like and value strikeout pitchers, seeing how many we've had in the system, over the years, on the major league team...

[Brock Beauchamp]

Clearly the team does like and value strikeout pitchers, seeing how many we've had in the system, over the years, on the major league team...

 

Johan Santana, Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, and Matt Garza say "hi".

 

The bottom line is that the Twins have done a bad job of scouting hard-throwers and when combined with their bottom 15 picks through most of the 2000s, they've come up woefully short on arms. It's possible that they don't value hard-throwers as much as other teams but they certainly don't hate them.

[ThePuck]

Clearly the team does like and value strikeout pitchers, seeing how many we've had in the system, over the years, on the major league team...

 

Johan Santana, Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, and Matt Garza say "hi".

 

The bottom line is that the Twins have done a bad job of scouting hard-throwers and when combined with their bottom 15 picks through most of the 2000s, they've come up woefully short on arms. It's possible that they don't value hard-throwers as much as other teams but they certainly don't hate them.

 

Two of those (Santana and Liriano) weren't part of the draft and weren't originally ours. How much did we develop those two before they were in the majors? How much did we pay to draft those two. One of those two was too expensive to keep so we got rid of him.

 

Garza got shipped off cause he wouldn't listen to how they wanted him to pitch.

 

Then there's Baker...

[ThePuck]

but again, we aren't getting anywhere...you guys are more than entitled to believe what you want...even Terry Ryan said that everyone wanted them to draft power arms so they went that way this year...seems to me that means they weren't really doing that before but have now decided, hey, that might be an idea worth exploring. I'm sure that's a stupid thing to think too...I'm just generally stupid...

[Brock Beauchamp]

but again, we aren't getting anywhere...you guys are more than entitled to believe what you want...even Terry Ryan said that everyone wanted them to draft power arms so they went that way this year...seems to me that means they weren't really doing that before but have now decided, hey, that might be an idea worth exploring. I'm sure that's a stupid thing to think too...I'm just generally stupid...

 

They drafted Shooter Hunt.

 

Again, the Twins may not place as high a priority on power arms as some other teams but you act as I'd they consciously avoid them. That is simply not the case.

[gunnarthor]

Clearly the team does like and value strikeout pitchers, seeing how many we've had in the system, over the years, on the major league team...

 

Johan Santana, Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, and Matt Garza say "hi".

 

The bottom line is that the Twins have done a bad job of scouting hard-throwers and when combined with their bottom 15 picks through most of the 2000s, they've come up woefully short on arms. It's possible that they don't value hard-throwers as much as other teams but they certainly don't hate them.

 

Two of those (Santana and Liriano) weren't part of the draft and weren't originally ours. How much did we develop those two before they were in the majors? How much did we pay to draft those two. One of those two was too expensive to keep so we got rid of him.

 

Garza got shipped off cause he wouldn't listen to how they wanted him to pitch.

 

Then there's Baker...

 

Garza was shipped off b/c TB wouldn't take Slowey. Liriano had only pitched .2ip at A+ when we got him. Santana had even less experience. (Neither were drafted, not sure what you were getting at there). I think the Twins should get the majority of the credit for developing them. Santana still credits Cueller for teaching him his change up. Santana did sign an extension with us that bought out one of his FA years. I'm just not sure what the problem here is. The Twins have drafted a number of guys that could be called power guys when Radcliff was running things - Durbin, Hunt, Garza. And Johnson has gone even farther after those types. Radcliff also had a lot of success drafting control guys that other teams seemed to ignore. Shouldn't we be happy that the Twins found a market inefficiency and got a lot of success out of it?

[Kwak]

Hmm. I thought this thread was about Gibson. I fail to see the value in Gibson as a relief pitcher--he was drafted and developed (and paid?) to be a starting pitcher, at which Gibson has yet to fail. Shorten his innings? Easy enough--Shut him down! There was a previous thread (forgot by who?) about Gibson first proving his viability (is that the same as stamina?) before inserting him into the rotation. So, establish a training program now and carry it through ST and into the rotation he goes. So far, I don't see five starting pitchers ahead of him in the depth chart--and I don't expect that there will be five come April.

[John Bonnes]

WE had a pretty good story on this site on this:

 

http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?526-A-History-Lesson-Twins-Pitching-Draft-Edition

 

For some reason, the Twins went away spending high picks on pitchers in 2006 and 2007, had a couple of clunkers in 2008 and have had injuries to their top piicks in 2009 and 2010. Prior to that they were on a roll with pitchers, but I don't know if a change in philosophy is really the culprit. They just haven't done as well. Some of that might be on the new draft guy, but some is just on not taking guys in 2006 and 2007.