ewen21

This. So this. He is a liability as far as I am concerned. Yeah, yeah....I know he is fast and I know he is a good center fielder, but as much as people keep saying his defense makes him worth it that simply is not the case. No way is he saving as many runs as his bat subtracts. He has a WAR (according to fangraphs) of 0.2 and that is terrible. We are almost in Nick Punto 2007 territory where you have people looking at the sizzle (those diving catches) without even looking for the steak. And you are right. This is in no way on any coach. At some point, this comes down to the player and that point is now. He's gotten a free pass to be a terrible hitter and people are providing reinforcement for him not to fret much about it. This notion that so long as he is fast and covers a lot of ground in the field and "the hitting will come" really is beginning to become a problem. People I know and respect think he needs to spend the rest of the year up here even if he doesn't get another hit. I'm so against that school of thought it isn't even funny. If we are trying to build a culture that applies accountability and gives players their place based on merit, you can't do that. No way, no how. It costs the team games and it costs the player mentally. It holds back players who are deserving. It isn't fair and it isn't necessarily the right way to develop THIS PLAYER. Buxton simply is not mentally ready to step into a major league batters box. Still! We are supposed to overlook that? I understand his talents and athleticism allows him more of a leash, but this is starting to become absurd.

This is basically the statement being made here. To change the discussion to, "you complained about a guy walking" (in single at bat) is not fair at all. It steers the discussion away from actually discussing an issue the Twins have. If Joe Mauer is going to hit in a spot where runners are on base and a run is needed then he is doing his team a disservice by going up there in take mode. He's basically letting opposition off the hook. He needs to go up there looking for something to DRIVE. He doesn't do that. In fact, there doesn't seem to be a pitch anywhere in the zone that Joe really turns on. He rarely ever turns on a ball and hits it hard and for distance. When has he smoked a line drive double into the right field corner? Like never. Does he ever hit a wall banger into the RF gap? Shouldn't we want him to TRY to pick up his team with his bat when runners are on base? We've seen it time and time again. For those who can't trust their eyes the numbers at fan graphs show he takes more strikes than anyone and there isn't any good in that. It makes him a more defensive hitter. It's tactically irresponsible and this is why I say he is not a good situational hitter. His approach basically assures us that won't happen and it is an approach where he defers the responsibility to drive in runs. Is it too harsh to say this here? If so I have to ask WHY?

How do we know he's not battling through something? He went nearly two years playing with post concussion syndrome. He might reveal that he played the first month with two broken femurs. You never really can tell

The bottom line is Joe won't adapt. It will be more of the same and because of his obvious propensity to spit on strikes he will pay for it. Heck, the Twins will pay for it. Batting him cleanup is at the zenith of absurdity. I'm inclined to bat him 8th

The last part is what is important. It's really the essence of this discussion and part of the reason why Mad Bum just might go yard more than he will this year. Isolating a single at bat is pointless. Forget that. Mauer swung at a lower percentage of strikes than any other player last year. Case closed. He takes too many STRIKES. I don't even care what the count is. When you let roughly half of the strikes thrown at you go by you are setting yourself up for trouble. This is why Joe takes so many defensive swings. He's in such a rut with how he approaches every single at bat. It is the same robotic approach over and over for the last few years. Not sure what else there is to say. There really is no legitimate rebuttal for the paragraph above. It is what it is

Brant Alyea and Chris Colabello were all world for a little over a month. I'm concerned about Buxton.

Is anything I said wrong? You brought Votto into the discussion. No hard feelings

Which makes it even more madden (I suppose) for Reds fans His bat hasn't deteriorated

Different player, different hitter. Votto still smokes the baseball. Joe really doesn't That was my point. What fans are saying about Joey Votto doesn't concern me. Nor should that criticism invalidate criticism Joe gets for taking too many passive ABs with RiSP

He's not a very good situational hitter. He takes the same approach in every single at bat. The more he does this the more he will take defensive swings and strike out.

Votto still hits ropes into both gaps and over the fence. Just sayin

With that said there is no disputing that Joe has a penchant for taking too many pitches. This isn't about a single at bat. It is something he has always done and it has gotten progressively worse. Why sabatoge the discussion? Simple observation and an objective point of view should be enough for anyone here to acknowledge that. If that isn't enough to convince anyone then go to fan graphs and check. I don't get the hostility that gets fired up when someone takes a jab at Joe. That's all the OP did. I don't get why Joe needs to be insulated from criticism. His approach is a problem. He no longer seems to have a happy zone. A pitch or a place in the strike zone where he takes his best cut. It's perplexing to me as I am sure it is to others.

Ugh. Enough of these reunions

Pretty much this. We as Twins are grossly overrating Dozier and have not accepted that the market for second baseman is not wide open. The Dodgers weren't sweating us at all. They found a solution in Forsythe and will probably make more moves to improve their club. Our guys? They seemed stuck on this one to the point where they couldn't do anything else. They could not come up with a single trade this winter? Hard to explain that one away.

That was supposed to show us that those guys were leaders. The favored veterans taking in the new guy The culture needs to change.

I think not making a single trade after losing 103 games is absolutely ridiculous. I think the problem here is that Dozier is being overrated here. He isn't as good as a lot of people want think due to natural homer bias. That's all it is. I say let it not be forgotten how brutal he was the second half of 2015 and the first part of last season. Suddenly, after a few months of playing the best baseball he's ever played, he's considered a star or "the face of the franchise"? I'm not buying. The Twins are trying to finagle way too much. The market has spoken and unfortunately it's not giving us exactly what we want. So what? You trade Dozier for myriad reasons: 1. Even if he does play near an all star level (and next year) he will be 32 when that contract is up. It's highly unlikely we are contenders these next two seasons. What's the benefit? 2. His value will never be greater. His marketability is based on his team friendly 2 years, his power and the fact that he's got two or three prime years left. Extend that timeline forward and his value almost automatically drops. All of those favorable factors diminish with each game plays 3. Playing Polanco out of position might compromise his development. That kid should replace Dozier.at 2B. He's ready now. I'm so sick and tired of the Twins plugging young players into different positions all the time. Let Polanco develop in his NATURAL position. Gordon will be our SS someday soon anyway. Think two years forward for Gods sake 4. Dozier is a NOW player and by the time this team is good again his moment will be over, his contract will be up, see ya 5. He's been called a leader. I'm not so sure about that. He flew south rather badly when this team was contending in 2015. I thought Dozier was being goofball in spring training last year and was supposed to be leader. His surge came long after the season was over and to me that is too little too late This isn't about trading him just to trade him. I just gave a bunch of solid reasons why you do it. I'd say if you don't agree please don't mischaracterize me as someone wants to trade for the sake of making a trade. moving a very capable young player (Polanco) to his actual position. It's about selling a guy at his peak value after a 103 loss season. Quite frankly, I have no idea why Dozier wants to even remain a twin. He's been playing for a loser his entire career. That right there says something. Time to turn the page on this guy. As Branch Rickey once told Ralph Kiner....I came in last with you and I came in last without you. Dozier has little to do with the young ecenucleus of 22 and 23 year old players I said my piece

Polanco will be a player and he's a second baseman. Goodbye Dozier As you said, make room for younger players and bring a couple more for Dozier. We are keeping Dozier and I this is non move we might regret. I felt the same way in 2013 when we extended our "elite closer" instead of trading him

Leviathan, your three points are iron clad. Without any emotional attachment those three facts cannot be altered. On top of that, Twins fans need to also think about what do with Dozier after the 2018 season if we do hold him. Do we sign a 32 year old to a multi year deal? And what about Polanco? Isn't he better suited for second? We will have Gordon up eventually. I think there is an emotional attachment to Dozier. This is streaky player who never played in a big game in is major league career and yet some people want to say "face of the franchise"??? I'd much rather have a young nucleus like we did in the early 2000s. A team identity, rather than labeling one guy the face. We could probably fortify what already have by dealing Dozier. It is not that complicated.

Hello?

Oh please. This is an opportunity for the Twins. They had one with Perkins a few years ago and they extended him in a move that was tone deaf. I think the push back on the Twins is the market. Dozier had 3 amazing months. Have we forgotten how terrible was during the two half seasons prior? Dozier is no sure thing and this 103 loss team stands to gain nothing by having him stick around for two years. Get the best deal you can without the silly posturing

Who ever said that? All I'm saying is that if what Dave is telling us is true the Twins are being silly

You agree with me

So the Dodgers should just give the Twins more than market value?

Agreed. If this were a major league forum with fans from around the country then there would be a whole lot more objectivity as to what his worth is. We are only an isolated minority. The harsh reality is teams know the Twins situation. They understand (as you sat) the Twins benefit very little by holding Dozier. The Twins and a lot Twins fans really need to get over it and move on. We become far too attached to "our guys". I hear the tag "face of the franchise" being thrown around. Seriously? A face of the franchise on a 103 loss team? Did we not see the second half of 2015 and the first half of last year? Dozier is so damn streaky. The second half of last year could be a mirage, but I see a lot of Twins fans thinking Dozier is Josh Donaldson 2.0. He isn't. I like him, but come on....where is he in the big picture? Anyone seriously thinking he needs a multi year deal after the 2018 is up? Unless we are totally of that--and there is no way to be sure--he should not be held. Which is why I think this "get your final offers on the table" power play is a joke. Reminds me of Bill Smith during the Johan negotiations. Any team could wait the Twins out and see what happens this year. We are not in a position of strength here, I'm sad to say. As far as what the Sox got for Eaton, we really need to stop prentending that we could get that kind of haul. The market for second baseman is tiny. There are so many good ones now all of a sudden. For some odd reason these factors aren't being considered nearly enough. And please.... Don't anyone go saying I want to get rid of Dozier for a bag of peanuts. The market has spoken for better or worse. Two highly prospects seems to be the going rate. After much consideration I take that

He isn't saying that at all