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Everything posted by Tom Froemming
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Article: Twins Need To Be Buyers Next Winter
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Wasn't trying to compare sports or their successes, was moreso just trying to outline the fact that to a general sports fan in the Twin Cities there are a lot of other options out there. That's especially true now that the Wolves at least interesting.- 125 replies
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Article: Twins Need To Be Buyers Next Winter
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
If you're only going to spend once you think you have a shot ... you may never get to the point where you think you have a shot. Also, it's not like you're not signing these guys to one-year deals, either. I think we'd all agree that the Twins should have a good window of competition while as all these young guys get into their prime and are still cheap. When the Cubs signed Jon Lester, they'd lost 101, 98 & 89 games the previous three seasons. They felt like at some point over the seven-year deal they would be contenders (think it turned out to be sooner than even they expected). Sometimes it pays off to get started in building up a team a year early, especially if there's a strong market. There's also an outside possibility Japanese ace Sho Otani gets posted next offseason, so it could be completely bonkers it terms of pitching talent (or everyone could sign extensions between then and now, who knows).- 125 replies
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- jake arrieta
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Article: Twins Need To Be Buyers Next Winter
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
You're right, the majority of free agent contracts turn out poorly, and if the Twins are going to be a long-term success it'll be by development, not spending. But making a big investment on an established player would be just as much about the Twins trying to gain some credibility as anything else. A ton of casual fans think very strongly that the Pohlads are greedy, and they're frustrated with the lack of talent since Target Field opened. It's going to take a lot to win those fans back. I don't agree with that stance, but the Twins need to realize that perception is out there and do something about it.- 125 replies
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- jake arrieta
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The Gophers are (correction, were) in the Big Dance, the Wild are Stanley Cup contenders, even the Timberwolves are fighting for a playoff berth and 35,000 fans recently attended the first Major League Soccer game in Minnesota. The Twins, meanwhile, have averaged 94 losses the past six seasons, haven't won a single playoff game since 2004 and are expected to post another losing record in the season ahead. Opening Day is right around the corner, and they're essentially an afterthought in the Minnesota sports scene.Something drastic will need to be done in order to keep this team relevant. The front office turnover made some waves, but it was followed by a typically quiet offseason for the Twins. To be fair, with a free agent pitching class "headlined" by Rich Hill and Ivan Nova, this wasn't the winter to make a huge signing. Next offseason it'll be a different story, however, and the Twins should be in a great position to make a big splash. Can't imagine the Pohlad's approving a marquee signing? Well, they have very little money tied up beyond 2018, so there should be plenty of room in the budget. The only guys signed through the 2019 season are Phil Hughes ($13.2M), Jason Castro ($8M) and ByungHo Park ($3M). So without further ado, let's play my favorite game: Spend the Pohlad Family's Money! MLB Trade Rumors released its top 10 free agents for the 2017-18 off season this week, and the class looks to be flush with starting pitching. The list is topped by Jake Arrieta, Yu Darvish, Johnny Cueto and Masahiro Tanaka. It's worth noting that both Cueto and Tanaka would have to opt out of their current contracts to become free agents, and it's possible between now and then one of those top guys signs an extension. None of those big four free agents has even turned 32 yet, with 28-year-old Tanaka being the youngest. Arrieta was a Cy Young winner in 2015 and both Darvish (2013) and Cueto (2014) have a runner-up finish for the award. I'm drooling just at the thought of any one of these guys in a Twins jersey, but each of them will command a hefty salary and all have some questions to answer in 2017. Arrieta looked human from June on last season, posting a 4.05 ERA, then had a 3.63 ERA in the playoffs. There are some durability concerns with both of the Japanese imports, but at least we know Darvish's UCL has been repaired. Tanaka had an elbow injury in 2014, but he elected to forego surgery. Seems to have worked out for him, but that arm could be a ticking time bomb. Cueto has been a workhorse, but his underwhelming run with Kansas City in 2015 may cause AL teams to shy away. But even beyond that impressive foursome, is yet another group of less tantalizing, yet still intriguing names. Chris Tillman, Micheal Pineda and Alex Cobb are among that next tier, and could dramatically improve their stock this season. Here's a quick look at the numbers: LAST THREE SEASONS Arrieta: 2.42 ERA, 2.72 FIP, 9.15 K/9, 2.55 BB/9 Darvish: 3.20 ERA, 2.94 FIP, 11.55 K/9, 2.94 BB/9 Cueto: 2.80 ERA, 3.26 FIP, 8.21 K/9, 2.08 BB/9 Tanaka: 3.12 ERA, 3.53 FIP, 8.18 K/9, 1.54 BB/9 Tillman: 3.99 ERA, 4.22 FIP, 6.68 K/9, 3.19 BB/9 Pineda: 4.10 ERA, 3.42 FIP, 9.20 K/9, 1.77 BB/9 Cobb: 3.54 ERA, 3.51 FIP, 7.88 K/9, 2.58 BB/9 Assuming the 2017 Twins put the worst season in franchise history behind them and look to be playoff contenders in 2018, which of these guys would you prefer? Would you pay top dollar, or wait out the market to see if there's a bargain? Or do you avoid free agency all together? Is it too early to be speculating on such things? Absolutely, but c'mon, let's have some fun. The guy I'd personally most like to see would be Darvish, and perhaps having Thad Levine around could be helpful in landing the strikeout machine. Levine was with the Rangers when they signed Darvish out of Japan, so he likely knows a thing or two about what makes the big righty tick. Even if the Twins can scrounge up the $150 or so million it'll cost to sign one of the top flight guys like Darvish, will they even want to come to Minnesota, or take less to play for a World Series contender? That's where Derek Falvey is going to have to earn his salary. Between now and next winter, he will need to get the franchise in good enough shape to be able to convincingly tell free agents "this team will be in the playoffs next season." The front office was apparently unable to deliver that message to Mike Napoli, who took less money and a shorter commitment to play for the Rangers. Continuing failure to attract free agents is going to result in a continuing failure to attract fan interest. Click here to view the article
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Something drastic will need to be done in order to keep this team relevant. The front office turnover made some waves, but it was followed by a typically quiet offseason for the Twins. To be fair, with a free agent pitching class "headlined" by Rich Hill and Ivan Nova, this wasn't the winter to make a huge signing. Next offseason it'll be a different story, however, and the Twins should be in a great position to make a big splash. Can't imagine the Pohlad's approving a marquee signing? Well, they have very little money tied up beyond 2018, so there should be plenty of room in the budget. The only guys signed through the 2019 season are Phil Hughes ($13.2M), Jason Castro ($8M) and ByungHo Park ($3M). So without further ado, let's play my favorite game: Spend the Pohlad Family's Money! MLB Trade Rumors released its top 10 free agents for the 2017-18 off season this week, and the class looks to be flush with starting pitching. The list is topped by Jake Arrieta, Yu Darvish, Johnny Cueto and Masahiro Tanaka. It's worth noting that both Cueto and Tanaka would have to opt out of their current contracts to become free agents, and it's possible between now and then one of those top guys signs an extension. None of those big four free agents has even turned 32 yet, with 28-year-old Tanaka being the youngest. Arrieta was a Cy Young winner in 2015 and both Darvish (2013) and Cueto (2014) have a runner-up finish for the award. I'm drooling just at the thought of any one of these guys in a Twins jersey, but each of them will command a hefty salary and all have some questions to answer in 2017. Arrieta looked human from June on last season, posting a 4.05 ERA, then had a 3.63 ERA in the playoffs. There are some durability concerns with both of the Japanese imports, but at least we know Darvish's UCL has been repaired. Tanaka had an elbow injury in 2014, but he elected to forego surgery. Seems to have worked out for him, but that arm could be a ticking time bomb. Cueto has been a workhorse, but his underwhelming run with Kansas City in 2015 may cause AL teams to shy away. But even beyond that impressive foursome, is yet another group of less tantalizing, yet still intriguing names. Chris Tillman, Micheal Pineda and Alex Cobb are among that next tier, and could dramatically improve their stock this season. Here's a quick look at the numbers: LAST THREE SEASONS Arrieta: 2.42 ERA, 2.72 FIP, 9.15 K/9, 2.55 BB/9 Darvish: 3.20 ERA, 2.94 FIP, 11.55 K/9, 2.94 BB/9 Cueto: 2.80 ERA, 3.26 FIP, 8.21 K/9, 2.08 BB/9 Tanaka: 3.12 ERA, 3.53 FIP, 8.18 K/9, 1.54 BB/9 Tillman: 3.99 ERA, 4.22 FIP, 6.68 K/9, 3.19 BB/9 Pineda: 4.10 ERA, 3.42 FIP, 9.20 K/9, 1.77 BB/9 Cobb: 3.54 ERA, 3.51 FIP, 7.88 K/9, 2.58 BB/9 Assuming the 2017 Twins put the worst season in franchise history behind them and look to be playoff contenders in 2018, which of these guys would you prefer? Would you pay top dollar, or wait out the market to see if there's a bargain? Or do you avoid free agency all together? Is it too early to be speculating on such things? Absolutely, but c'mon, let's have some fun. The guy I'd personally most like to see would be Darvish, and perhaps having Thad Levine around could be helpful in landing the strikeout machine. Levine was with the Rangers when they signed Darvish out of Japan, so he likely knows a thing or two about what makes the big righty tick. Even if the Twins can scrounge up the $150 or so million it'll cost to sign one of the top flight guys like Darvish, will they even want to come to Minnesota, or take less to play for a World Series contender? That's where Derek Falvey is going to have to earn his salary. Between now and next winter, he will need to get the franchise in good enough shape to be able to convincingly tell free agents "this team will be in the playoffs next season." The front office was apparently unable to deliver that message to Mike Napoli, who took less money and a shorter commitment to play for the Rangers. Continuing failure to attract free agents is going to result in a continuing failure to attract fan interest.
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Article: Minor League Report From The Fort
Tom Froemming replied to Seth Stohs's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Is there anybody in particular who is noticeably more physically mature from over the offseason?- 30 replies
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- tyler benninghoff
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Great stuff, love to hear it straight from the source and see the heat maps especially. Those show even good framers have their specific strengths and weaknesses (unless you're Buster Posey, that guy's incredible). Pretty insane how good Castro is on outside pitches to righties.
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- jason castro
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It's pretty miserable to root for a losing team, but there are some benefits. One of the big ones is it's really affordable to attend the games. My favorite memories of the Metrodome were from nights where I got a ticket, ate like a pig, never had to stand in a single line and in total spent $10 or less. Wins were tough to come by, but it was cheap entertainment.I was as excited as anybody for Target Field to open, but I only got to one game that first season, and sat literally in the last row of the upper deck. Ticket prices have been on the decline in recent years, but the Twins are breaking new ground (in the Target Field era, at least) with their newest ticket package: the Twins Spring Ballpark Pass. What you get A ticket to 30 games from the start of the season to the end of May. That covers five weekend series, so half of those tickets are for games either on Friday night or over the weekend. Memorial Day Monday (May 29) is also included. Probably the highest-profile series is when Boston comes to town over the weekend of May 5-7. There are seven weekday day games in the package, not ideal for those of us who work 9-to-5, but sometimes it's fun take a day off to spend at the ballpark. Along with the games, you're entitled to all the promotional items over that span as long as you show up early enough. That include a trapper hat, baseball cap, bobblehead (of a comic book movie character ... don't get me started), batting practice pullover and Brian Dozier T-Shirt (which will be really awkward if he gets traded by then). What you don't get Well, you don't technically get a ticket, in the traditional sense. You have to download the MLB Ballpark App and pull up your eTicket on your smartphone or tablet when you enter the stadium. I'm kinda old school, so I prefer a physical ticket, but I have used the Ballpark app at Target Field in the past, it's very slick and easy. Typically the one thing a ticket to a sporting event entitles you to a seat in the stadium. This deal does not, it's a "standing room only" deal. There are plenty of great places to stand and watch a game, or plenty of bars inside the stadium where you can sit, but coming off a 103-loss season means there should also be plenty of empty seats you can occupy. The ushers, especially in the top deck, are very lenient when the stadium is half empty. Another huge exclusion from this package is the home opener, which is Monday, April 3 against the Royals. So, is it a good deal? Yes, I think so, but the commenters (trolls) over at Michael Rand's article for the Star Tribune would disagree. Each ticket is going to cost you on average $3.30 per game. Sure, it's possible on some of those weekday games in particular you could score a ticket at that price on the secondary market, but I doubt that will be the case on the weekends. To look at it another way, here's the cheapest face value ticket you can get for these three higher-profile games: Sun., April 16 (first Sunday home game): $11 Sat. May 6 (hosting the Red Sox): $19 Mon. May 29 (Memorial Day): $15 So just those three games already gets you up to $45, nearly half of what you're paying for 30 games. Again, you'll likely be able to score tickets for those games cheaper than face value on Stub Hub, but I doubt they'll plummet to under $4. To put things further into perspective, here's a list of the cheapest packages on some of the Twins' other ticket offers: Pick 10 Plan: $220 Flex 20 Plan: $440 Saturday Plan: $383 (13 games) Sunday Plan: $306 (13 games) Those packages do also get you the season ticket holder perks (the 10% discount on concessions is really nice) and get you into better seats, but it's not like they're right behind home plate or anything. Yes, the Spring Ballpark Pass is a great deal, even if you aren't able to go to each and every game. If it's such a great deal, why would the team offer it? Well ... there's the whole 103-losses thing ... and April and May aren't always the best weather months in Minnesota. I'm not sure if this actually went in to the thought process behind the package, but there's also the fact that Minnesota sports fans may be too wrapped up in the Wild's playoff run this spring to be bothered about baseball. It's worth noting, however, that both the White Sox and Pirates are offering similar deals. The White Sox have their deal only for April, $39 for 11 games. While the Pirates deal also covers both April and May, it's more expensive ($159) and covers fewer games (26). So, what do you think of this package? Great deal, or silly marketing ploy? Click here to view the article
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I was as excited as anybody for Target Field to open, but I only got to one game that first season, and sat literally in the last row of the upper deck. Ticket prices have been on the decline in recent years, but the Twins are breaking new ground (in the Target Field era, at least) with their newest ticket package: the Twins Spring Ballpark Pass. What you get A ticket to 30 games from the start of the season to the end of May. That covers five weekend series, so half of those tickets are for games either on Friday night or over the weekend. Memorial Day Monday (May 29) is also included. Probably the highest-profile series is when Boston comes to town over the weekend of May 5-7. There are seven weekday day games in the package, not ideal for those of us who work 9-to-5, but sometimes it's fun take a day off to spend at the ballpark. Along with the games, you're entitled to all the promotional items over that span as long as you show up early enough. That include a trapper hat, baseball cap, bobblehead (of a comic book movie character ... don't get me started), batting practice pullover and Brian Dozier T-Shirt (which will be really awkward if he gets traded by then). What you don't get Well, you don't technically get a ticket, in the traditional sense. You have to download the MLB Ballpark App and pull up your eTicket on your smartphone or tablet when you enter the stadium. I'm kinda old school, so I prefer a physical ticket, but I have used the Ballpark app at Target Field in the past, it's very slick and easy. Typically the one thing a ticket to a sporting event entitles you to a seat in the stadium. This deal does not, it's a "standing room only" deal. There are plenty of great places to stand and watch a game, or plenty of bars inside the stadium where you can sit, but coming off a 103-loss season means there should also be plenty of empty seats you can occupy. The ushers, especially in the top deck, are very lenient when the stadium is half empty. Another huge exclusion from this package is the home opener, which is Monday, April 3 against the Royals. So, is it a good deal? Yes, I think so, but the commenters (trolls) over at Michael Rand's article for the Star Tribune would disagree. Each ticket is going to cost you on average $3.30 per game. Sure, it's possible on some of those weekday games in particular you could score a ticket at that price on the secondary market, but I doubt that will be the case on the weekends. To look at it another way, here's the cheapest face value ticket you can get for these three higher-profile games: Sun., April 16 (first Sunday home game): $11 Sat. May 6 (hosting the Red Sox): $19 Mon. May 29 (Memorial Day): $15 So just those three games already gets you up to $45, nearly half of what you're paying for 30 games. Again, you'll likely be able to score tickets for those games cheaper than face value on Stub Hub, but I doubt they'll plummet to under $4. To put things further into perspective, here's a list of the cheapest packages on some of the Twins' other ticket offers: Pick 10 Plan: $220 Flex 20 Plan: $440 Saturday Plan: $383 (13 games) Sunday Plan: $306 (13 games) Those packages do also get you the season ticket holder perks (the 10% discount on concessions is really nice) and get you into better seats, but it's not like they're right behind home plate or anything. Yes, the Spring Ballpark Pass is a great deal, even if you aren't able to go to each and every game. If it's such a great deal, why would the team offer it? Well ... there's the whole 103-losses thing ... and April and May aren't always the best weather months in Minnesota. I'm not sure if this actually went in to the thought process behind the package, but there's also the fact that Minnesota sports fans may be too wrapped up in the Wild's playoff run this spring to be bothered about baseball. It's worth noting, however, that both the White Sox and Pirates are offering similar deals. The White Sox have their deal only for April, $39 for 11 games. While the Pirates deal also covers both April and May, it's more expensive ($159) and covers fewer games (26). So, what do you think of this package? Great deal, or silly marketing ploy?
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Article: 2017 Minnesota Twins Minor League Primer
Tom Froemming replied to Seth Stohs's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
This is great stuff Seth! Excited for Matt Albanese to get back on the field. Seems like he could be a steal.- 12 replies
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Article: Central Intelligence: Detroit Tigers
Tom Froemming replied to Nick Nelson's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Really weird that they didn't make their annual big splash, but also didn't try to rebuild. How did they not get a better option for CF? -
Since Hughes and Santiago have more than 5 years of MLB service time, they can refuse a demotion to the minors and elect to become free agents instead. Since, as Seth explained earlier this week, Santiago's contract isn't fully guaranteed until he's added to the 25-man roster, I'd think the team would just release him. Hughes, on the other hand, does have a guaranteed contract. I think "hiding" him on the DL to start the year would be a much more likely option the Twins would pursue if they're not interested in putting him in the Opening Day rotation.
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By getting abused, I mean in terms of their usage, not getting abused by major league hitters. If you're down more than five runs early, sometimes you need a guy you can toss out there and basically say "we gotta get 2-3 innings out of you no matter what happens." A lot of bullpen guys throw multiple innings in the minors, so maybe I'm more nervous about over usage than I should be, but I'd rather risk Haley than one of those arms.
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Midseason. I think the first two months of this season will be all about the new front office trying to get this team back to respectability and figuring out whether or not this team has any chance to be a serious contender in 2018. If they decide that's not realistic, I expect an epic fire sale and for Molitor to get canned (or resign). I'm not sure the pitching would initially be any better after a roster makeover, but it would certainly be a lot more interesting/young.
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Article: Central Intelligence: Cleveland Indians
Tom Froemming replied to Nick Nelson's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Pretty crazy that the Twins were able to go 9-10 against these guys last year. They only managed eight wins against KC & DET combined. -
There's upside in Haley I didn't explore in the article. He sits lower as a starter, but he's touched 95 in the past. If he can maintain an uptick in velocity as a reliever and weed out is fourth (or even third) best pitch, you might have something worth getting excited about. I also feel like he could hold his own as a fifth starter, I just don't see an avenue to that role for him.
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Yes, it's possible the Twins could try to work out a trade with the Red Sox (they traded for Rule 5 pick Scott Diamond in 2010 in order to be able to send him down to Rochester), but I don't see that as very likely in this case. I doubt Boston would be interested in cash considerations or lower level minor leaguers; they're flush with cash and trying to compete. Sure, they exposed Haley to the Rule 5 Draft, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't like to have him back if given the opportunity. Beyond anything else, the biggest reason I feel it would be wise for the Twins to make room on the roster for Haley is he can provide valuable insurance to the rotation and protection for the bullpen. Here's how I imagine the pitching staff shaking out right now: Rotation Ervin Santana Kyle Gibson Hector Santiago Trevor May Phil Hughes Bullpen (assuming Glen Perkins starts on the DL) Brandon Kintzler Ryan Pressly J.T. Chargois Matt Belisle Taylor Rogers Justin Haley Buddy Boshers Neither Gibson nor Santiago are known for pitching deep into games, and both Hughes (recovering from injuries) and May (transitioning from he bullpen) aren't exactly guys you want to count on to eat innings out of the gate. This staff needs a reliever who can be called upon to throw multiple innings early in games, and I'd rather not see another promising young starter moved to the pen (like May was) or a reliever miscast into a role he's not suited for (like Michael Tonkin was). Basically what I'm saying is Haley should be this year's version of J.R. Graham, the Twins Rule 5 pick in 2015. It's tough to point to a guy who had a 4.95 ERA and 1.48 WHIP and say he was a valuable member of a pitching staff, but Graham throwing 63 2/3 innings was essential to keeping the rest of the bullpen fresh that season. He even made one emergency spot start. Over his 38 relief appearances, Graham entered a game prior to the fifth inning 12 times, he pitched in multiple innings 25 times and in 20 of his appearances there was at least a five-run difference in the score (one way or the other) when he entered the game. He was basically the definition of a mop-up man. Another big thing to remember concerning the Opening Day roster is it can change the next week, the next series, hell, the next day if need be. Bringing Haley north with the big club doesn't necessarily mean committing a roster spot to him for the entire season. If he doesn't pan out, no big loss. You basically rented him from Boston in order to gobble up a bunch of low-leverage innings early in the season and you send him back once you're convinced he's nothing special. No harm done. Some people may take issue with Jose Berrios not being included on the Opening Day roster. While he has nothing left to prove in the minors in terms of performance -- he's dominated every level -- he does have plenty to work on. At this point I'd rather he work out the kinks in Rochester, where guys like he, Tyler Duffy and Mejia would stay stretched out to serve as rotation insurance. Berrios was the youngest AL pitcher to start a game last season, so it's important to keep in mind he's still way ahead of the curve. Leaving Tonkin off the roster would mean exposing him to waivers, but I think there's more of a chance that Tonkin would clear waivers than there's a chance the Twins could work out a suitable trade for Haley with Boston. But I do not view Haley and Tonkin as being in direct competition for the same spot. There needs to be a long man behind this rotation, and we saw last season, Tonkin cannot thrive in that role. Haley making the 25-man roster wouldn't be "blocking" any of the higher upside relievers. Would you rather see a guy like Jake Reed, Mason Melotakis, Trevor Hildenberger, Nick Burdi or (insert your favorite of the Twins 46 relief prospects here) getting abused in a mop-up role in the majors or pitching in the back end of the bullpen in the minors? To me, Haley's primary competition is against the guys like Ryan Vogelsong and Nick Tepesch, not any of the traditional one-inning relief guys. Is Justin Haley one of the Twins' best dozen or so pitchers? No, probably not. Is he an excellent fit to be the last man in the bullpen? Absolutely.
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Article: Minnesota Baseball Goes Back Inside
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
According to the stadium's website you can bring in soft-sided bags, 12" x 6" x 12" is the max size. No outside food is allowed, which is a huge bummer. Target Field is really awesome in that respect; they let you bring in pretty much whatever outside food you want. Their only rule is you eat it in the general seating areas (not inside any of the bar/restaurant areas inside the stadium). USBS has the same entrance system as Target Field: basically empty your pockets and/or open your bag for inspection and walk through a metal detector. Also, one last update, based on some of the photos/video I've seen from the Sat. & Sun. games they opened up different sections for fans to sit. Not more sections, but they shifted the open ones to more behind home plate (and also more behind the safety netting).- 23 replies
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Article: Minnesota Baseball Goes Back Inside
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Yeah, leave that to Kenny Chesney.- 23 replies
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- matt stemper
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Article: Minnesota Baseball Goes Back Inside
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Eh, it was ok.- 23 replies
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Article: Minnesota Baseball Goes Back Inside
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Ha! I've gotten over the sticker shock of event food & drink prices, that's just kinda the going rate these days. But the next one of these games I go to I'll definitely plan on eating a meal beforehand.- 23 replies
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- matt stemper
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Article: Minnesota Baseball Goes Back Inside
Tom Froemming replied to Tom Froemming's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Paid $9.25 for a 16 oz. craft beer and $10 for a basket of chicken strips & fries. Had your typical ballpark fare: burgers, hot dogs, brats, nachos.- 23 replies
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