KirbyDome89

Neither do I for the most part. My point was that making a trade will be more expensive in terms of what they'll give up to obtain front end help, and if 4/80M for Ryu was balked at, then I'm even less confident this FO will be willing to part with the prospects necessary to bolster the rotation from the top down.

? So don't load up to compete this year because every significant player on the Twins will miss either all or major parts of the season? That's awful logic......

I'm all for making deadline moves, but I don't think any team should hold back to start the season with the intention of maxing the budget at the deadline. A move in July should be in addition to, not a completion of, a contending team.

I'm not a huge Keuchel fan either, but it was down to just him and Ryu at the time, and given how badly this team needs SPs I could've justified the signing even if it wasn't choice 1-5. If they won't spend this offseason, I have no confidence in them spending going forward, and if that's the case I'd rather see them toss "bad money," to Kuechel on a 3 year deal than watch ownership pocket it and have to listen to the can being kicked down the road for another season.

I guess this cements the notion that this FO is primarily interested in contract value above all else. That's a nice way of saying they're only intent on getting a very favorable deal. I'd love to know why they're insistent on talking up FAs if their plan is to offer well below market value, or fail to bid altogether. FA isn't about value, it's about need, and you're forced to pay to meet that need. Also, if we're supposed to now hold out hope for a huge trade either this offseason or at the deadline (yeah, the goalposts have now moved that far) why should there be any confidence in that happening? The going rate for a SP is only going to increase as we move forward. In FA they only had to commit cash; now we're looking at both absorbing a contract and parting with young, team controlled talent, and most likely a good amount of that talent will be high end in terms of prospect rankings.

That K/9 in the 2nd half is buoyed by a 4 game stretch in September when he put up 33K in 22 IPs. 17 of those innings were against Detroit and the Sox who weren't even fielding major league teams at that point. His SO/W and WHIP both dove significantly in July and August. His Slugging and OPS spiked during those months as well. Yeah, his BABIP likely won't be near .342, but it'll certainly sit higher than his .268 in first half, and the jump wasn't just due to hitters bleeding balls through a leaky infield. His 2nd half put him squarely between his 17' and 18' seasons, which would be about league average. The Twins need that, so it isn't 18M poorly spent, but I'm not holding out much hope that we see Odorizzi repeat his April/May performance.

I'm not concerned about the innings. Yes, they matter, and the more innings thrown by competent pitchers the better off you are as a team, but 150-160 good innings from a #3 starter is totally fine with me. Keuchel isn't really trending in any direction, at least not in any significant way to move him off that solid mid rotation tier.

Agreed, and they'll certainly be more expensive, but doesn't that fly in the face of the premise of the article? Why wait until July 31st and guarantee yourself a massive price tag?

Jake is coming off a strong 1st half. He wasn't the same pitcher in the 2nd half of last season. MN is gambling that they can get another strong 3-4 months out of him, and I'm fine with that for 18M. Why wouldn't the Twins want to sign a guy they can slot into the 3 spot? They'll be without Pineda for 2 months and he's far from a lock to stay healthy. Other than Berrios and Odo it's a bunch of question marks and AAAA guys in the rotation. I honestly don't understand why so many seem content to punt on FA and hang their hat on a big trade happening.

All starting pitchers struggle the third time through the lineup. Odorizzi is notoriously awful his third trip too. Almost every negative you listed about Keuchel applies to Odorizzi apart from the contact stats. MN was happy to pay Odo 18M; Kuechel getting the same isn't a stretch.

What would be unexpected about being in a position to compete?

I'm fine with pushing for Ryu. I think if it's Keuchel vs. a trade I'd rather this club explore trade options and spend prospects. I guess the question is how confident are you that the FO will pull the trigger (pay what it takes) to bring in an "impact," arm. It isn't a desirable situation, and I'd be anxious that anything would get done if they whiff on both but I just don't see Keuchel being a significant upgrade in any way for this roster. I suppose he stabilizes the back end of the rotation, and signing him doesn't preclude MN from making a trade, but the chances of both happening are even more remote.

They probably had similar fun when MN signed Perez to a major league contract last offseason, or when the Twins brought in Anibal Sanchez for a look during spring in a previous year. The Sox are still going after Ryu, and they've already landed Grandal; that fan base is probably a little less agitated than we are at the moment.

I don't doubt players have a hierarchy of destinations, anybody would. My issue with the "they don't want to play here," cry isn't that it's warping reality, so much as it isn't based on reality whatsoever. We can use Bumgarner since he's the latest example. It's entirely believable that he wanted to be in AZ so badly that he left a good amount of money on the table and refused to consider any other destination. On the other hand, if this organization was truly "in," on him then they should've been the high bidder being rejected. Given the "woe is me," local reporting and the fact that the Twins PR loves to tout the "we're after X," lines and proudly report their failed bids, I have a hard time imagining MN was the team that offered 20M more than the DBacks yet we've heard nothing about it. The mantra really starts to fall apart when you stack up the other FAs. They underbid on Wheeler and Darvish. They didn't even bother to bid on Ohtani. "They don't want to come here," seems to be a convenient excuse/shield for the FO and ownership, and/or a coping mechanism for fans, particularly on this site. It's the most basal form of Occam's Razor. Are all these FAs just turned off by spending 3-4 in MN during the summer, or does this organization continue to fail in exceeding top FA offers? I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when/if their top dollar offers are turned down, but as of right now we have yet to see that happen.

Eh, I think there is enough evidence on the side of history to suggest that either could've been had for the right price. If we're setting the bar so high to where we need to know details down to the minutiae involving transactions then TD might as well fold now. We know what numbers FAs accept, and we hear reported offers other teams in contention make. If players were turning down less lucrative deals with any sort of frequency I'd also guess that union reps would be making waves. As for how this relates to the Twins, I said it in another thread, but show me the FA contract this team has tendered, which beats all other offers by a significant amount, and the FA that turns it down, and then we can have a discussion about geography. Up to this point it's been the Twins underbidding, yet we're force fed the "players don't want to come here," mantra and if you push back against it you're a "moron," according to local media, or "narrow-minded," according to writers on this site.

I'd buy it if Wade was drafted by this FO

Always? No. A vast majority of the time? Yes. How often are players turning down significantly more lucrative contract offers, especially in baseball where they aren't hitting FA until they're nearly 30?

I'd happily take the bet that Bumgarner would provide more value to this team over the next three years than Lewis Thorpe...

Money. It's the sole focal point for some fans, which has become draining. Yes, the Twins (and many other suitors) were outbid for Wheeler. They never could've even dreamed of approaching the contracts handed out to Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, or Anthony Rendon. While this will inevitably invoke utterances of "Cheap Pohlads" from a certain crowd, those folks need to face facts: The Twins are never going to have the uninhibited spending flexibility of a Philadelphia, New York, Washington, or Los Angeles. The Rendon-Cole argument is a strawman. Nobody had expectations of landing Cole, despite what his addition could do for this team. The bar was lowered to Ruy, Wheeler, and Bumgarner from the onset, and now 2 of them are already off the table. The Twins could've beaten either the Wheeler or Bumgarner deals without pushing beyond reasonable payroll expectations. They chose not to do so. Minny. Look, I know most Minnesotans hate this shorthand but I needed it for the wordplay so please let it slide. As much as I love Minneapolis, I recognize that we're not the most appealing destination for high-profile free agents and their families. Money talks, but it's narrow-minded to believe that's the overriding factor in every decision, especially for the most in-demand players. All four of the aforementioned free agents – Wheeler, Cole, Strasburg, Rendon – went from famed big-market cities to other famed big-market cities. Wheeler, from what I've heard, notified the Twins more or less that he wasn't interested. Show me the FA contract offer this organization tenders, which beats every other team, and the FA that turns it down, and then we can start blaming geography. Narrow-minded is defaulting to the "they didn't want to come here," schtick while this organization continues to underbid. Money isn't an overwhelming encumbrance – ownership's willingness to spend was made clear by the apparent green-lighting of a massive offer to Wheeler, which healthily exceeds the amount Bumgarner got – but the Twins can't endlessly outbid competitors with deep pockets and built-in preference. I'm not sure why fans would yearn for it. They did the same thing with the offer to Darvish. Is money not an encumbrance so long as FAs are willing to accept 20% less than market value, or is the FO entirely unwilling to pull the trigger? Either way, it doesn't bode well for this team moving forward. I believe the Twins are serious about doing everything within their power to strike a sensible deal with these players. Sensible at this point has to be taken to mean "a steal," which runs counter to everything FA is. And this is the developing reality Twins fans may need to come to grips with: An offseason defined more by savvy than splash. Disappointment. FTFY This front office has shown a keen eye for pitching talent, and a special ability to develop arms. Are we trying to speak this into existence?

Eagerly awaiting to hear how this is spun as "The Twins don't need to spend this offseason...."

If you include the guys they selected and forced onto the active roster it looks even less palatable. I'm happy they've just stayed away from the Rule V the last few years.

Yet apparently we're morons for believing the Twins would put a PR spin on their refusal to spend what it takes to land top talent.

What exactly were the two "morons," Mackey quoted wrong about? When have the Twins shown willingness or proficiency in spending top dollar to acquire elite talent? What moves has the new FO executed that signals a change from this organizations aversion to spending? Remain optimistic if you want, I'm still clinging to hope they acquire at least one starter at or above the talent level of Berrios, but pessimism is warranted. The irony of Mackey calling fans morons, while ignoring decades of revenue going unspent and propping up low FA bids as evidence of change is just too sweet.....

What needs to be phased out is the atrocious "Kasota Gold," nonsense. In my very biased opinion the Twins have one of the best logos in baseball. The navy TC hat is classic and clean; I love it. Bring back the M alternate. I love the red throwback caps too. Go back to pinstripes instead of the bland solid whites. The revival of the baby blue jersey is a step in the right direction.

Personally I think we could quibble about whether either was the instigator, but lets assume Rudolph was. The reason Garrett is seen as the "bad guy," is precisely because his reaction was so far beyond what anybody would deem proportionate. That's the part I don't think is hard to acknowledge. If you allow your dog to piss in my yard, and I decide to poison it in retaliation, I'm probably the bad guy...