chpettit19

I don't think the question about Bauer on any team is simply about fans. What do the players, managers, staffers believe happened and what kind of person do they think Bauer is? Fan/PR backlash absolutely plays a role, but if the actual players on the team express anti-Bauer feelings the fans thoughts don't even matter. The NFL has proven you can employ awful humans without any kind of extended PR or financial hit and I'd think MLB teams would be willing to take the short-term hit as well if they think Bauer can help them win. Winning erases just about every misdeed in sports. Bauer wasn't exactly known for his great locker room presence before he was accused of these things. If half your clubhouse disliked him to start and now you add this on top of it I'm not sure there's a ton of clubhouses who would open their arms to him. But there certainly may be some and then baseball and the Dodgers have some decisions to make.

Again, give me names. You want better depth. Describe what that actually looks like. Which players better than Tim Beckham are you wanting as the backup SS for the MN Twins? Who says Plan B isn't Martin, Lewis, or Polanco? That's your assumption, not mine. What legit ML SS is going to be willing to go to any ML team and be the utility infielder or the AAA SS to start the year? Give me examples of what depth moves the Twins should be making. I mean you listed Rob Refsnyder as real depth before. That's 100% 20/20 hindsight to list him as real depth but suggest Tim Beckham isn't. Go look at their career stats. Refsnyder has negative WAR for crying out loud. Beckham has a career .733 OPS. Not out of this world, but lightyears ahead of your desired depth of Refsnyder and his career .618 OPS.

Who do you suggest the Twins, or any major league team, sign to minor league deals that are significantly better than Cave and Beckham? I'd honestly like a list of players you think would be willing to take a minor league deal with a ST invite that have had better seasons than Cave and Beckham have in the majors. Who do you want them to have as depth? Who should be the non-40-man roster players in the minors that will get you excited about the Twins depth?

Probably pretty often. Or at least close enough to start considering other factors. The player can then tell their agent which location they prefer and the agent can do their thing to try to get them to up their offer and all that. But I'd guess initial offers are often times quite similar. Then the games begin.

To me you're just defining minor league depth. People were all angry last year because the Twins didn't have "depth" to deal with their injuries. Now people are mad that they have former major leaguers in the minors. Cave has no more of an inside track than any other player not on the 40-man. They're going to fill the 40-man before the season starts. They're not going to cut someone to put Cave on it over Rooker, Larnach, or Celestino. This is exactly what I'm talking about, though. They didn't sign Beckham to be their starting SS or waive Cave with the intention of him being their 4th OFer. I'm thoroughly confused by the idea that signing Beckham is bad if you expect their move is to sign a "middling journeyman SS" and you don't think Lewis or Martin are the answer at SS this year. Signing Beckham has no impact on, and makes no statement about, them making a "major splash" at SS. Either they're signing Story, a "middling journeyman," or making a trade. None of those things are impacted by Beckham. If you don't think Lewis or Martin are the answer you should be happy they added a former major leaguer between them and the bigs to give more cushion. Is the better move for a team that says they want to compete to have no former major leaguers in the minors as depth for injuries to guys on the 40-man? That doesn't make even a little sense to me. Why is it bad to have former major leaguers (who, by the way, had at least a little success in the majors) in the minors? I don't understand how it's a bad thing in any way, shape, or form.

Ever? I'd think it's been the case with every FA the Twins have ever signed. Including Nelson Cruz and Josh Donaldson recently. The Twins are never going to be major players in the deep end of the FA pool. We need to stop expecting that. It's not going to happen. And their track record of receiving revenue sharing and comp picks supports the idea that they shouldn't be as they aren't bringing in the type of money people think they should be.

I think there's certainly truth to the idea that not many players are from the midwest thus don't have a connection to the area or even much knowledge about it. Was just reading a Pro Bowl player survey on The Athletic today and Minneapolis was mentioned as one of their favorite cities to visit. Do the Twins do a good job of selling the Twin Cities as an attractive location? I have no idea. I don't know what sales pitches to mid-level ML free agents look like. At the end of the day it always comes down to money, though. So this question really comes down to "would the average MLB player choose MN over another location if the money is the same" and the answer to that is most likely that they wouldn't. Being a competitive team that gives them a chance to win a WS is probably the most likely way to improve the desire to come here. Can't fix MN weather or it being located where it is. But every player has different desires in where they want to go and why. MadBum certainly didn't sign with Arizona because he thought they were going to be contenders. There are far too many variables that go into these decisions for players to make a blanket statement that MN is unattractive. (And on a side note: signing FAs for more than they're worth just to get them to come to MN is a bad strategy for building a winning team)

It honestly blows my mind that people get so up in arms over these minor league deals. Remember when Cave got resigned to a nothing deal and people's heads exploded because he was still on the 40-man and it meant he was basically guaranteed a starting spot and all that then he was removed from the 40-man like 2 days later? I know things aren't exciting with the lockout ruining the offseason, but we need to gain some perspective. These deals happen all the time. They aren't some org altering thing or any sort of guarantee that he's the starting SS opening day. It's a minor league deal with a ST invite. It means nothing. Teams hand them out like candy to get veteran players to take minor league deals. Can we all just relax?

Fair enough. I'll never understand why you'd trade 150-200 innings for 10-15, but to each their own. As far as Winder himself goes I hope we can agree that he's got some exciting upside with that 4 pitch mix and I definitely want to see a bunch of him in Minneapolis next year!

Your assessment of the rule isn't all that accurate, though. The rule as currently written is that 172 days counts as a full year of service time. There are 187 days in the MLB year. So they have to hold a guy in the minors for 16 days during a year to save an entire season. The idea that they need to sacrifice the majority of an earlier age season to gain that extra year of control is false. If they put Winder on the opening day roster he'd likely be the #5 starter since he's never pitched in the majors before. Here's the Twins first 16 days of the schedule (for now...) Mar 31- Starter 1 Apr 1- Off Day Apr 2- Starter 2 Apr 3- Starter 3 Apr 4- Starter 4 Apr 5- Starter 1 (keep him on his normal rest) Apr 6- Starter 5 Apr 7- Starter 2 (keep him on his normal rest) Apr 8- Off Day Apr 9- Starter 3 (1 day extra rest) Apr 10- Starter 1 (keep him on his normal rest) Apr 11- Starter 4 (lots of extra rest) Apr 12- Starter 2 (keep him on his normal rest) Apr 13- Starter 5 (lots of extra rest) Apr 14- Off Day Apr 15- Starter 1 (keep him on his normal rest) The question is whether having Winder (or whatever rookie) on the opening day roster so he can make 2 random starts in the first 16 days worth an entire extra year of his career when he's an established pitcher? I'd say no. I'd throw bullpen games on those 2 days. Especially since the second one has an off day immediately following it and the first one has an off day 2 days later.

To be fair the rules make it so they only need to keep them in the minors for 16 days, not 2 months. 2 months would be for super 2 status. But 16 days gains them an extra year. I agree it's a bad look, but for a league with the disparity in spending power like baseball has it's not too crazy to keep a guy down for 2 weeks. Especially a back end rotation guy who would make maybe 1 start in the majors in the first 2 weeks of a season.

Oh, yes, I'm not suggesting they go stacked guys for all 5 rotation spots. It's more about being flexible with the arms and rotation spots. Ober and Ryan need to be given much more leash and treated as "true starters." Bundy and Pineda (or someone like him if they bring them in) same thing. But the young guys will start in the minors and have innings there. Then be asked to get major league innings as well. I don't think we can expect anyone who hasn't debuted yet to get 100 plus major league innings this year. Well not more than 1 or 2 of them at least. They'll get minor league innings so their major league innings would be lower. I still just disagree with the idea that stacking pitchers changes the bullpen scenario and stresses it anymore. If you have guys in your pen you can't trust to reasonably get you through the 4th inning you're screwed anyways. Don't need to use Rogers or Duffey types then. Could if you want. No reason you couldn't throw Duffey in the 4th and Rogers in the 9th. But If you're wanting/expecting 7 or 8 out of your stacked starters I don't see why you couldn't use Stashak, Alcala, Thielbar, etc. type pitchers in the 4th and still feel comfortable with being able to cover the end of the game.

I guess I'm confused as to how any of this is different than a "normal" rotation. If you starter goes pear shaped in any situation you need to use your bullpen more. In the stacking situation you don't need to cover 8 more innings with the pen if your starter is trash in the first you need to cover 3 more. Your arguments sound far more like "young pitchers just can't be trusted, don't use them" than "stacking starters is dangerous." They need to be prepared every game any pitcher goes out there to bridge a gap. At this point you're just saying they should have no faith in their prospects to be useful at all. I don't know how else to read "they will have to be prepared almost every game a young guy goes out there to bridge the gap." They can certainly take the second pitcher out in the 8th if they'd like. What is stopping them? But they also have the chance to not put Rogers in back to back games where he's proven to be absolutely terrible if they have the luxury of having 2 guys cover the first 7 or 8 innings. If the second pitcher in the pairing only throws 2 innings then he gets the start next time when he'll be even fresher and the guy who threw 4 innings takes the second spot and maybe only throws 2 or 3 innings or maybe he throws 4 or 5. Nothing is stopping them from altering when they throw relievers or how many innings each guy throws. Starting the second guy in the 5th is to give a typical starter the chance to do his normal warmup and give him a better chance for success. Beyond that they can do whatever they want. Nothing stopping them. Stacking starters takes pressure off the entire staff. They all need to be successful for shorter stints and you get more rest for the pen. The Braves just won the world series by doing very similar stuff while they beat an Astros team that had their starters average about 3 innings a start. It's not a crazy, or even new, idea. Provides more flexibility for the entire staff.

I'm with you on the fan experience side of things. That's been a problem for a while now with the changes in approaches (3 true outcomes being the main culprit). But overall fans prefer to show up for wins. If they're losing every time Ryan pitches 5+, but winning every time they stack Winder and Balazovic I'm going to the Winder and Balazovic game. As far as the managing of the pitchers I just don't see that as any different than deciding when to take a pitcher out in the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th. The Twins have far more data than us and have far more time dedicated to making plans. Especially with the lockout right now. They have nothing but time to strategize right now. There'll be some games that look like bad Rocco decisions and some that look like he got it right. It'll be an adjustment and be frustrating to see a guy cruising through 4 get taken out, but if it means wins then, again, I think we all deal with it better. Ober was in a similar spot last year. We were basically all cranky to see him taken out because what else did we have to watch for beyond the young guys pitching and possibly providing hope for the future? If they're stacking Bundy and Pineda I'm not excited. But if it's Winder and Balazovic I'm still tuning in and am less cranky when they pull Winder because I know the big picture plan. Not only do arms need to be built up to go deep into games, but they need to be used to pitching from February into November (assuming we're trying to win World Series rings). So it's going to be annoying to have them pulled early, but I know they're also getting ready for future years when we want those guys throwing 160+ innings and maintaining success deep into the year. If this becomes their new norm and they build entire staffs of stacked "starters" I'll be pissed. But in 2022 I get it. The goal being that a few of them start to separate and 2023 forward we have 3, 4, 5 guys that can be legit starters and can go back to a more typical rotation situation. My strategy with stacking "starters" this year would be 1 guy is set to be the starter that day and the other knows he's starting the 5th. Allows him to do his normal pre-game (now mid-game) routine and start in a clean inning. He takes over as if the score is 0-0 and he's out there to do his normal starter thing. If the starter struggles and can't get through 4 a normal bullpen guy closes the gap. It's not great to pull the starter after the 4th if he's cruising, but they did it with Ober last year and now he's setup to throw a more normal starters load this year. With all the injuries we saw last year I'm good with taking a year to build buys back up while also getting them real MLB experience. Not ideal, but I don't think it's terrible either.

I think it actually means pitching Dobnak and Jax (or any 2 similar pitchers) in the same game. 1-2 times through the order for each of them. I think we see the Twins go a little wild this year with some different pitching strategies. They simply can't survive in the 5 man rotation form this year. They have some kids who may be good, but can't throw 180+ innings this year. So I think we see them stacked and they each get once or twice through the order depending on the day and the 1 inning bullpen guys are actually used less than we've seen the last few years as the "starters" combine to cover more than 5 or 6 innings.

Feels like maybe that's just being stubborn to be stubborn. It's certainly not ideal if Martin, Lewis, and Gordon don't produce a major league SS, but just refusing to improve the position because you missed on those guys seems unproductive at best. At this point it's a done deal on Gordon. He's not an everyday major league SS. There's no sense in complaining about it or holding onto hope anymore. Martin has very, very little chance of sticking there. Lewis is a tossup at this point and it will depend on what improvements he made during his rehab and the covid year. The Twins should have a very good idea of if he can stick there or what he's looking like after having him in their facilities and working directly with their staff 7 days a week for nearly 2 years. If they don't think he's going to stick there either what is the point of being stubborn and not signing Story just because you really wanted one of those 3 to turn out? I don't get the argument of "we have a really big problem in 2 spots, but this problem is much bigger so let's not invest anything to fix the second really big problem." The Twins don't have a starting SS for opening day 2022. Why not sign a top 10 SS to fix that hole when they have 40 mil left to get to the place the payroll has been at the last few years and there's no SP worthy of that kind of money? They're not fixing the rotation as drastically as people want. At least not in the way people want. They're not spending a ton of money there. It's just not happening. So at this point why not invest in Story and have him, Buxton, and Polanco all locked up in the middle of your defense and lineup for a number of years? Donaldson and Sano both coming off the books soon so it's not like it'll crush their payroll. Just because the pitching is bad doesn't mean they shouldn't fortify the rest of the roster. Why go into 2023 with question marks on the pitching side still and the very real chance of still needing a major league short stop? If Lewis turns out to be a real SS then you can trade him or Story for the pitching you'll still need. I just don't get the idea of not bringing in good players just because they need good players at other positions as well.

It's been shown that the road/home splits for Colorado players don't mean a whole lot. It is easier to hit at mile high, but also then harder to hit on the road when pitches do different things. So it creates an even wider gap and you can't just say "his road stats are his real stats" or even "his road stats are closer to his real stats." Arenado had some pretty gnarly home/road splits too and I think St Louis is quite happy with his 121 OPS+ for them last year. For the most part good hitters are good hitters wherever you put them. And he's still drastically better as a whole package than anything the Twins have run out at short in a long, long time. He's night and day better than Simmons with the bat and way better defensively than Polanco at short.

Brusdar had pitched 9.2 innings for the Twins before he was traded. Our definitions of major leaguers vs prospects are very different. He threw 23.1 innings for the Dodgers his first year there. Your original argument was for wanting major leaguers because they'd established they were major leaguers. 9.2 innings is certainly not establishing that you're a major leaguer. You're moving the goal posts on me a little there. I don't know if you're being serious about their usage of the starting staff or not. If you're trading for Glasnow as a "true ace," as you described him, the Twins would absolutely be looking for significantly more than 100 innings for him. Berrios threw 121.2 innings for the Twins as their de facto "ace" last year and he was traded in July. Maeda threw 106.1 and he missed half the year with multiple injuries. Happ threw 98.1 and he missed starts before being traded in July. Ober threw 92.1 and he was on a strict pitch/innings limit in his 20 starts. Shoot, Griffin Jax threw 82 innings and only made 14 starts. Not expecting Glasnow to get to more than 100 innings is even more confusing to me. You're now suggesting the Twins trade for a "true ace" that will pitch barely more than a bad closer (Colome threw 65 innings last year). Him being 28 doesn't have anything to do with him being able to throw 170+ innings that you'd want from him. He didn't do it before he was 28 and not coming off TJ so I'm not sure why him being 28 would suddenly make him able to do it when he couldn't when he was younger and not coming off surgery. Buxton was a homegrown superstar. It took Buxton wanting to spend his entire career with 1 team to get that deal done. And took years of back and forth to get it figured out. They're very different situations. Not to mention this FO very clearly being far more weary of pitching injury struggles than position players. They also paid JD a ton with his injury concerns. They're more willing to take on position player injury risk than pitchers. I don't have any problem with people wanting to take a gamble on him. And if the price is right every player should be a target. I just don't get people suggesting he's going to come here and be the savior when he's never pitched an entire season and will then be coming of TJ with 1 season of playable control. If they're trading a bag of BP balls for him so it's just a financial thing, cool. But talk of Duran and other top 10 prospects being the cost blows my mind. Glasnow isn't the pitcher to be sending top 10 prospects out for. There's nothing at all to suggest he's the missing piece to get them over the postseason hump in 2023 because there's nothing at all to suggest he can pitch an entire season and lead a postseason staff.

I love this move. Nobody would argue that pitching isn't the biggest need, but I don't get why they wouldn't sure up the offense/defense with Story for the next 5 years and be in a spot to not really have to worry about much, if anything, offensively for the next 3 or 4 years. At that point you can put all efforts into the pitching knowing you're set on the offensive/defensive side. Buxton, Story, Polanco up the middle for the next handful of years would be a great place to start from with the young guys on the mound and corners coming up.

There's a ton of data that they're tracking on all their young guys. For example, with Ober last year they were using in game velo, spin rate, release point, contact allowed, etc. data from pitch to pitch during each of his starts to decide when to take him out. It's not a hard line of "he just faced the 9 hole hitter a second time, take him out." The pitchers get to keep going during numerous starts into the 3rd time through the order. The team continues to compile that data. They continue to track spin rates, release points, more data than you could imagine on every pitch. They use it all to decide what a good range of pitches, times facing hitters, innings, etc. is for each guy. It's a very fluid thing based on a crazy amount of data. But if a young guy is continually dominating the lineup twice they're not taking them out without letting them try the order a third time. Last year was unique in that it was coming off a year where many many pitchers threw 0 innings, but generally speaking the limits are based on individual pitcher's results and data. But the game is moving more towards more long relievers and fewer true starters. As many in the industry describe it they're moving towards out getters and piecing together staffs that can get 9 innings of outs. They use the 40-man roster quite differently now as they rotate arms between AAA and the majors. Only going to be more dramatic with AAA teams moving closer to their major league parent club. The teams are getting more flexible with things. Nobody is going to start pulling the deGroms of the world after twice through the order, but the guys who aren't deGrom will be used differently. They're continuing to adapt how pitchers are used. They just have far more data now and are able to individualize things more instead of sending a guy out there in the 6th to face the 3-4-5 hitters a 3rd time with a 1 run lead when they know he's tired and not their best chance to get those guys out.

I didn't actually assume that, was just having a little fun. I agree there's a lot of innings that still need to be accounted for.

I'm with Matthew... the 2022 pick will be the #1 prospect in 2024. Or at least they better be. If you're picking at #8 and the majority of your prospects are supposed to be "graduating" to the majors in 2022 or 2023 the kid you pick in 2022 better be at the top of the list in 2024. But if I'm picking from these 3 I'll go Rodriguez with Petty as second and Miller a far 3rd. Miller doesn't have the loud tools to be considered for top prospect spots even though he'd probably be #1 of these 3 if I'm picking most likely to have a major league career right now.

It's not so much about arm troubles as it is about effectiveness 2 or 3 times through a batting order. The analytics they're going off aren't about arm injuries, they're about effectively getting outs. All of that with the caveat of a missed season in 2020 limiting pitch counts/innings in 2021.

If 2 or 3 of the prospects are successful in '22 then 2023 is looking great and nothing like '22. If Ryan, Ober, and Balazovic (just example names) are successful in the rotation in '22 and we are going into '23 with 3 young arms on league minimum deals as part of the rotation they're in significantly better position than they are right now. If it's just Ober and Ryan having another good year and establishing themselves as mid-rotation guys you go into '23 with Maeda, Ober, and Ryan all established as legit major league arms on extremely cheap deals. As opposed to '22 when we're going in with 0 (so far) established arms. If Balazovic, Duran, Winder, etc. can produce 1 more arm to feel good about as a #5 going into 2023 you're looking at filling 1 rotation spot as opposed to 5. My expectation is that only 2 or 3 guys establish themselves/are successful in '22 and I'm quite excited about what that means for '23. Sign Story to a 5 year deal, have 2 or 3 youngsters establish themselves in '22 and go into '23 needing 1 front of the rotation arm. Feels pretty realistic to me. With Donaldson and Sano both off the books after '23 there's even more to be excited about as far as possibilities if 2 or 3 young guys are successful in '22. That's the dream. That's the hope. 2 or 3 youngsters are successful and a couple others show they can be bullpen pieces? Be still my heart ?

Are you assuming the Twins starters are pitching complete games every game? That's going to be a hard standard to meet...