Hosken Bombo Disco

6 times in 9 years has this become the greatest achievement in modern day professional sports I will cite it myself from time to time, but not as the one essential fact that can be used to trump anything I disagree with. Not claiming that's what you are doing here Dave but its just the same on the other side of the aisle, hard to take a point of view as seriously when it has the old 6 times in 9 in it. I am not a Texas Rangers fan, but I would not be hanging my head if I were one. Game 6 in 2011 was unbelievable and sometimes stuff just happens.

Hicks was definitely a scholarship player after the trades and might have been rushed but there were no other options. Hey, you take a chance to see if a guy is ready. Hicks and Arcia should be fine this year. This should also be Gibson's year to move forward. We have Nolasco and some other potential pieces to get to 80 wins I'm thinking.

There's another language where Sano translated means "He shall arrive in June"

On second thought, I will say that it's a relief there are no "unreviewable" calls, not counting balls and strikes. That's the NFL's worst failing. If the intent is to simply get the calls right. But how do you feel about the idea of rationing one dugout challenge per game, two if you win the first challenge, and no dugout challenge permitted after the seventh inning?

ouch.

So MLB replay has been modeled almost exactly after NFL replay. What a disappointment. It's too bad Joe Torre has his name on this.

Big difference between shading and shifting. Here's a shift from last years playoffs: http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/58922774/v31072427/al-wc-loney-gets-swisher-cuts-off-runner-at-home/?query=2013%2Bwild%2Bcard%2Btampa On a shift play like this, the pitcher would break to cover third on a ground ball and not to first. And this is just one situation of any number of them. Much of it is baseball sense and I have my doubts that Plouffe or any given pitcher in a given situation could be trained to consistently pull off good shift plays.

Of course we are romanticizing! Because for many people Morris's value transcended his stats (which were still pretty good). Ask me in a year what Morris's career ERA is and I will have forgotten but will probably tell you it was something like 2.45 and then we'll launch into a barstool debate about the players -- besides Rollie Fingers and Jack Morris -- who had the greatest moustaches in baseball, which is a heck of a lot funner than arguing about some guys fWAR vs bWAr

I can live with the idea of Morris not being in the Hall, but whatever his stats I really want to stress one more time the point of view that, as most people define "ace" that yes, Morris was the ace of those Detroit teams (all those opening day starts?), and here specifically that Morris's turn in the rotation "happened" to come up for Game 7 in 1991. Two things: 1. If I remember the feeling from moment, beside the natural anxiety of a game seven, there was no other pitcher you'd want to have pitching in a game seven than Morris. That feeling was vindicated for us in spades. (With a little help from the deke) This performance is why Morris, like Mazeroski, may actually be remembered longer than many Hall of Famers themselves. 2. In his seven post-season series appearances, Morris pitched Game 1 in six of them. By the way Ben thanks for the reminder that there has been doping going on long before the mid 90s. It also strikes me, looking back, at how unimposing Morris physically was on the mound compared to guys these days.

Trevor Plouffe: to continue dumping Gatorade as often as possible on that fine mane of Dozier hair

Oh this is the Hall of Sabermetrics thread?-- I thought we were in the Hall of Fame thread *face palm* Seriously I do agree that Morris's numbers fall short. The great Detroit teams with Sparky, Gibson, Trammel, Whitaker, the ace of those great teams was Morris. Hands down. He's kind of the last guy from the by gone era when pitchers pitched complete games on 3 days rest (which would put GMs jobs at stake today) and when DL trips were few and far between. Oh well. There's the 1991 Game 7 display in the HOF so that makes me feel better. Bottom line for me is Morris will be remembered.

Quick Quiz... Name:____________________ 1. T or F: Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame. 2. T or F: In all time batting average for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between Trevor Plouffe and Jason Bartlett. 3. T or F: In all time fielding percentage for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between David Eckstein and Stephen Drew. How'd you do!?

I agree with this. A hard decision would be if Hicks has a great spring but I think Presley made a good impression last September. If Sano and/or Buxton are raking then get those guys up ASAP by May/June, especially Sano. Meyer too if he's dealing.

Agree. Miller probably just lost focus on his words and lumped Bartlett (not so likely) with Kubel (more likely). Happens.

Your initial comparisons showed me that a Drew signing would be a considerable offensive upgrade. I value Florimon's defense more than most here and am maybe biased towards that. And I think we just disagree on whether Drew is capable of staying on the field in years two and three of a contract. If he gets hurt, it's a circus again with shuffling the roster, shuffling the lineup. But Hardy has stayed on the field in Baltimore, which I wouldn't have predicted, so I will grant you that possibility.

But all things considered, just as good a bridge as Florimon would. I think that is the crux of our argument. I think some of us have seen too many Tolberts and Nishiokas pass through in recent memory and are ready for a decent fielding, stable middle infield, which we might very well have in Florimon and Dozier. Not that I'm hard opposed to Drew, but I'd rather see the Twins slot Florimon ninth and worry about getting Arcia and Hicks straightened out, than to suddenly just turn to free agency for every need.

Fair enough. I'm defining reliability here as "this is our shortstop, day in, day out, for the foreseeable future." No platoons, no mid-season tryouts for other guys. Guzman and Bartlett come to mind. As long as Florimon remains near the top of the league in the field (by whatever measure; last years early errors notwithstanding) then I'd like to see the organization show Florimon a vote of confidence and name him the every day shortstop for 2014. I wouldn't consider that a scholarship in this case. A lot of us see Drew's age and recent injury history as a big red flag when discussion long term contracts. Not saying Florimon can't get hurt. Drew is much more likely to miss time to injury I'd think, then we're back to Florimon anyway. Since I've been emphasizing middle infield stability, I decided to look up some recent SS/2B combos. I made this chart for JP3700 not to prove a specific point but just to get an idea of the Twins recent middle infield situation. I think a stable middle infield is valuable in intangible ways. Dozier and Florimon are proving to be above average and I'd really like to see the Twins continue to address other needs first. Team leaders, Games started, SS/2B, by year: [TABLE] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] Twins [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] AL Champ [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2000 [/TD] Guzman/Canizaro148/85 Jeter/Knoblauch148/82 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2001 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas115/148 Jeter/Soriano150/156 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2002 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas143/91 Eckstein/Kennedy146/123 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2003 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas137/131 Jeter/Soriano118/154 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2004 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas143/95 Bellhorn/O.Cabrera118/57 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2005 [/TD] Castro/Punto66/63 Uribe/Iguchi143/129 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2006 [/TD] Bartlett/Castillo99/142 Guillen/Polanco144/107 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2007 [/TD] Bartlett/Castillo135/85 Lugo/Pedroia139/132 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2008 [/TD] Punto/Casilla60/94 Bartlett/Iwamura122/151 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2009 [/TD] O.Cabrera/Casilla57/64 Jeter/Cano147/158 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2010 [/TD] Hardy/Hudson95/123 Andrus/Kinsler144/102 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2011 [/TD] Nishioka/Casilla59/53 Andrus/Kinsler142/144 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2012 [/TD] Dozier/Casilla81/83 Peralta/Infante145/59 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2013 [/TD] Florimon/Dozier127/141 Drew/Pedroia122/159 [/TABLE]

Sure he gets credit for those full seasons. He signed a big 1-yr contract prior to last season. But going forward, can you honestly project Drew for 143, 147, 128 games in the next three years? Also, I briefly looked up middle infield combos. Not necessarily to prove a specific point but to get a broad idea of whether or not the most successful teams in any given season, if they have middle infield stability day-in day-out. Team leaders, Games started at SS/2B, per season: [TABLE] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] Twins [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] AL Champ [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2000 [/TD] Guzman/Canizaro148/85 Jeter/Knoblauch148/82 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2001 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas115/148 Jeter/Soriano150/156 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2002 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas143/91 Eckstein/Kennedy146/123 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2003 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas137/131 Jeter/Soriano118/154 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2004 [/TD] Guzman/Rivas143/95 Bellhorn/O.Cabrera118/57 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2005 [/TD] Castro/Punto66/63 Uribe/Iguchi143/129 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2006 [/TD] Bartlett/Castillo99/142 Guillen/Polanco144/107 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2007 [/TD] Bartlett/Castillo135/85 Lugo/Pedroia139/132 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2008 [/TD] Punto/Casilla60/94 Bartlett/Iwamura122/151 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2009 [/TD] O.Cabrera/Casilla57/64 Jeter/Cano147/158 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2010 [/TD] Hardy/Hudson95/123 Andrus/Kinsler144/102 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2011 [/TD] Nishioka/Casilla59/53 Andrus/Kinsler142/144 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2012 [/TD] Dozier/Casilla81/83 Peralta/Infante145/59 [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] 2013 [/TD] Florimon/Dozier127/141 Drew/Pedroia122/159 [/TABLE] With Drew, a lot of us get the sense that he's an injury waiting to happen and then we go back on the short stop merry-go-round and back to Florimon anyway.

A high ceiling. My opinion is if Terry Ryan signes Drew for 3/33 then we'll know that Ryan was bidding against himself (again). In review, and setting aside all the yeah but yeah buts, Drew's games started at SS last three years (compared to Peralta, who also is more versatile): 2011: 83 games (140 Peralta) 2012: 75 games (145) 2013: 122 games (103) At 3/33 playing half seasons is I agree a cost/benefit not worth the money. I see the Mets/Pirates/Twins/Sox/ as potential landing pads but on a one year trial. Also, Twins starters at SS since we gave Hardy the boot after 2010: 2011: Nishioka 59, Plouffe 45, Casilla 36, Tolbert 22 2012: Dozier 81, Florimon 42, Carroll 36, Escobar 3 2013: Florimon 127, Escobar 21 More importantly, I believe stability at short will go a long way towards getting the team back on track in ways that are harder to quantify. I love the potential reliability and familiarity of Florimon over the "Door #3" quality of Drew. Florimon is not young but also not exactly over the hill, he might yet learn something about hitting and improve a little. Note that I said might . Punto was 28 when he came out of the blue to hit 290. So you never know. But great arguments on both sides for sure.

IMO this above is maybe the strongest case for a Drew signing, that he comes to Minnesota and enjoys the cocoon of our clubhouse so much (like Pelfrey and Kubel apparently have) that he falls in love with baseball again and wants to be on the field every day. JJ Hardy, he of the nagging injury, went to Baltimore and hasn't missed a game in almost three years. Can Drew be the same story? He seems to be trending downward and like someone said, the slope could be steep. But JP3700 in the OP does make a persuasive case with the Drew/Florimon wRC+ differential, too. I agree with the previous two posters that this is a tough call. It's gotta be a tough call for Ryan. We need offense and there it is. But Drew is 30 and 30 is not the new 20 for modern athletes. Again, a red flag. SS is not a traditional platoon position. Might be nice to keep a Florimon/Sano left infield side, too, for when Sano comes up NLT August I'd hope. My gut says this is less about the numbers and more about the feel. I think Ryan passes and maintains the SS/2B combo that worked pretty well last year. But you guys have moved me from the No camp to the Either way camp and it wouldn't bother me as much now if Ryan does sign him.

Quite an uncomfortable injury comparison you've given us here, as I don't know anyone who wouldn't go to bat for Cuddyer's toughness and yet few people seem to be going to bat for Drew's toughness (save some TD posters). Yet there it is. Also to nitpick for a second: 66 full days of finger strain in 2008 is probably a little misleading, and some of that time was a broken foot (which he rushed back from for the stretch run).

Maybe this?

Very abstract but very persuasive.. The injury/age/timing issue just tells me it still feels wrong, though. On the other hand he could be a guy who fits well in the clubhouse?

I'm beginning to think one more big signing puts the Twins in win now mode!