Jham

We've gotten into this position by wasting the years prior. We're obsessed with catching lightening in a bottle (Perkins, Dozier) and hoping that our talent will mesh into something serviceable. Adding veterans during a rebuild should have provided opportunities to trade guys away, and groom younger guys. But we've refused to add notable FA, and failed to trade players at their peaks. Rather than continually trying to get more talent, we've contently waited around for talent to bloom. This "immense young talent" we speak of doesn't include a catcher, an ace, or possibly even a lock-down reliever or shortstop. Who are we waiting for who figures to be a huge upgrade over what we have on the field now? Polanco maybe? Pinto doubtfully? We have a bunch of average players and no stars. Will May and Berrios have better years next year than Pelf and Milone had this year? Mauer can't be moved. Once Bux and Kepler are up, how do the cupboards look?

Well there seems to be 2 different arguments that people are blending into one. 1) Should the Twins Bench/Waive Hunter in order to get Buxton at bats. 2) Should Buxton have been optioned to AAA or immediately called up or briefly rehabbed and called up in order to get experience wherever he could? I think only 1 poster has suggested benching or waiving Hunter, yet the Hunter v. Buxton debate rages on. Regarding Question 2: I wouldn't have been mad either way. I can't believe people are freaking out like this over a few weeks in AAA coming back from a thumb injury. This seems to be a perfectly reasonable course of action for a young player who wasn't met with immediate success in his first stint. Calling him up immediately in order to try to spark the team/gain experience in the league and with his team would have also been reasonable. Neither move is likely to change EITHER the Twins fortunes or Mr. Buxton's, IMO. I think people would say that AA is prospects league, more high end talent, while AAA is an extended bench with plenty of veteran minor leaguers with MLB experience ready to be recalled at a moment's notice. Perhaps fewer high-end talents, but with far more experienced and consistent performers providing a higher level of play day to day, week to week.

He's a back up. He's played decently if unspectacularly in sporadic playing time. I understand your roster frustrations. I too think we have better options. But I don't get knocking a guy who hasn't really been part of the problem If anything, he maybe overachieved, especially the month where we won games. I think you and I just evaluate players differently. I loved the tools I saw when Bux was up. But was not overly impressed with his routes and body control in the field or on the base paths. His plate discipline was seriously lacking. His reckless style of play lead to strike outs, dropped balls, and outs on the bases (and triples, outfield assists, and catches) and of course another injury. Has he dominated for a month? He's played well. Has he dominated like the best player not in the Major Leagues? Not for a couple years. Torii Hunter is not a red herring. Posters are hard-core bashing the guy who has as much responsibility for the teams relative success as anyone. IF you think that the season is over and it's time to focus on player development, fine. But you don't have to slam Hunter in order to do so. Some have taken this tact, others have chosen to take cheap shots at guys like Hunter, Nunez, and Robinson who have actually played up to expectations unlike many other guys on the team, some of which the same posters (myself included re: Arcia) are asking to be called up.

Seriously, what has Shane Robinson done wrong this year? I can see the frustration with Suzuki and before him Santana, but Robinson has gone about his business and performed admirably as a utility outfielder, IMO. What indication has Buxton shown that he's ready for the Major Leagues? When was the last time he dominated at the minor league level to the extent a top prospect should dominate? Others say Kepler's bat is already more advanced than Buxton. To expect him to come up and be better than Hunter right off an injury is unlikely at best. Let's see how his recovery goes. I personally don't have a problem with the pay. Perhaps this is a little organizational message to him about being smart and taking care of his money makers. He can really go get it, but if his hands and wrists go, he's useless.

Decent time to get may stretched out. ..

Bunt? Indians love their pitcher, respect pelfrey, or not respect our offense. I'll say the last one.

Aside from getting one of the very best in the game, if this trade highlighted anything, it's that you can overpay for a player in his prime and then trade him for an even better player if you're willing to take the chances. People forget that quality free agent or trade acquisitions can be traded if necessary, as long as you're willing to eat some celery, er... salary. You know unless they get injured bad or are Joe Mauer. Also, getting the best of the best always requires overpaying. You can go through your whole life drinking Jack Daniels and Kendall Jackson because the difference between a $200 bottle and $25 bottle might not be $175 worth. Or a Perkin's steak vs. a Manny's steak. That's fine, but then you'll die having never had a great wine or a perfect steak.

How far down prospect lists do you guys think Buxton falls after another injury and wasted half season? I think is fair to wonder what toll the injuries are having on his body, let alone his development.

I'll disagree on the "wait and see" premise with prospects because I believe, right or wrong, that we have an advantage over every other team in baseball when it comes to evaluating our own talent. We see who has the work ethic, attitude, and general health to make it. We know who stays out too late, who won't stop eating, who won't quit drinking, who won't take coaching, and perhaps those who are an injury waiting to happen. If we "wait to see" if they succeed in the big leagues, we lose much of that advantage. Teams and fans alike can see what kind of player you have by watching Sportscenter. There were many Twinsdaily posters who were looking at Meyer the last couple years and hinted that he might be overrated by national prospect lists. I remember being shocked when I actually saw Delmon Young play, because he in no way looked like the number 1 prospect in the game. The Rays had to have seen that. We couldn't look past some sweet stats. Not that the eye test is the best way to access a player, but it's clear all of baseball viewed Delmon in higher regard than he probably deserved. Regarding standing pat, I do not see the team improving a ton internally. Our biggest holes in the bigs are our biggest holes in the minors. We don't have a true ace. We don't have any lights out bull pen guys (Tonkin and Achter are NOT major league difference makers), we have no high-end shortstop, and we have no catcher of the future. We can try to trade for one, but then why not trade now when they can help with a playoff run vs. trading after the season? This leaves free agency, the Twins had better be very active in this regard next year. And be ready to sell high on some guys before the deadline next year.

Bone... Donaldson... Robinson has been serviceable this year. I'm not going to knock his contributions. Arcia should probably be up to start for Hunter though.

82 pitches through 4 innings? Plus fifteen pick-off attempts with Revere at the plate... Why do we start Robinson against Iwakuma, and Rosario against Price again?

Awesome...

Disappointing AB from Rosario. Walks Hunter with 4 straight out of the zone. Rosario gets 3 balls out of the zone and swings at 2 of them.

With a guy who just failed to get a bunt down... yesterday... I mean, Santana gets that bunt down, right DaveW? Also, yeah, swing away guys. Let's play with a little swagger and confidence.

We traded who?

Mike, I was just pointing out that there was another guy (out of options) who wasn't traded (yet) who might be in the mix. That should be a consideration. Also, there is a currently still productive veteran (Hunter) who may want to return and who would be more likely to return if plan A included only unproven or mostly unproven outfielders. I know you hate the thought of re-signing Hunter, so it's fair that you would want as many young guys as possible to alleviate the risk of dismal failure by one or several. Veteran outfielders can be found in FA. I don't see the point in having Kepler AND Buxton as untouchables when we have to do something with Arcia (who may be as good or better) and Hicks who many are also saying is a keeper and Rosario on top of that. Sorry if I chimed in on your discussion with Linus in a confusing fashion.

I don't know if Thrylos compared Kepler and Arcia's relative current value so much as pointing out that including him in the conversations with the Buxtons and Sanos as an untouchable may be a bit over-the-top. Kepler's had a huge year. Is it repeatable moving up the class ladder? Perhaps the most apt comparison for this thread between Arcia and Kepler would be thus: What could we have gotten for Arcia 2 years ago. What about now? I don't want Kepler to go back and be average and have missed on Lucroy or Kimbrel or an impact guy because we over-valued our hand.

If we traded one of the future outfielders we would pretty much HAVE to re-sign Hunter or a similar short-range insurance policy in the outfield. To the delight of the Pohlads. I'm not sure how Kepler's career has been so different from Joe Benson's. And it's almost certainly worse than the forgotten man, Ozzie Arcia. If I had to bet on who was more likely to be an impact major-leaguer, Kepler or Arcia, I'd pick Arcia. Kepler certainly doesn't seem to be drawing a ton of interest from other organizations...

Well did the Royals luck out that Myers didn't develop into a star, or did they perhaps not have him rated as a top 5 prospect like others? I like to think of the Delmon trade as perfect example. He was one of the biggest prospects in the game. But I suppose if you really looked hard at stats and actually watched him play (eye test), you'd see that he was... unconventional. Probably same thing with Alex Meyer. Smart GM's can take advantage of the fact that prospect lists are typically slow to change because talent evaluators, other GM's, and forum posters alike, all hate to admit they were wrong.

I think this deal like this should be taken seriously. I wouldn't bet money that May or Berrios will be better than Shields over the next three years. I would bet money that Nolasco would be in the rotation next year regardless of what May and Berrios do in spring training. Look at the rest of the rotation. We had sure better be in win-now mode next season. Hu, Gonsalves, Thorpe, Berrios, Meyer, Jay, Stewart, Rogers, Slegers... We have arms. I'm happy to trade some of them to help the team win now and avoid the inevitable TwinsDaily '17 debate about Hu and Jay being blocked by an aging Hughes and Santana.

Prospects' value as trade pieces also go up and down. IMO, the Twins front office has been either a) poor at evaluating talent; poor at maximizing and nurturing talent; or c) too stubborn or passive in acting on a or b. If we're evaluating and nurturing talent correctly, we should have a great idea as to who may or may not be expendable. At least I hope we know our own prospects better than other teams. Looking back at our failed prospects. Almost all of them came with sneaking suspicions of over-hype long before their value started to plummet. Prospect rankings are often slow-to-react. We've had lots of coveted players and prospects who we held until their trade value was virtually gone. We've traded virtually no one at the peak of their value. Gordon Gekko would say the Twins do a good job of buying low, but a pretty poor job at selling high. What in-house prospects might people be overvaluing?

Oh I agree on not giving up on him, since we already have him. I'm saying if I was another team, I wouldn't bet on it in terms of trading for him. If I'm the Twins I don't bet on it by counting on him. Personally, I think he's taken a big step forward. However, his defense is a bit shaky at times and unless he starts hitting for a ton of power, his bat is sub-par. Will his power improve? Coin flip?

If we're dealing Rosario, it may behoove us to get him a few games at 2nd or 3rd to increase his value to teams needing a 2B or super-utility Zobrist kind of player. His bat profiles more of 2B than a corner. I can't imagine Hicks having much value on the trade market. He's having a career year right now, which is essentially Dozier with 1/4 the power. On the other hand, if the rest of baseball still sees him as an elite defender (certainly not) and 5-tool prospect (neither the tools nor "prospect" really fit) then we should deal him before they really look at it.

Berrios and Rogers are the only ones I see as potential upgrades from even Fien and Boyer. My thought is that Duensing AND Fien both rushed back from their injuries. Fien needs to go back to the DL. Boyer is simply overworked. He wasn't even in baseball last year, no? Duensing is fine with the exception that Rogers might be slightly better... maybe. Big risk to take when Duensing is pitching well and has experience, including playoff experience. Berrios has taken time to adjust every time he's jumped a level. Presumably he'll be a better pitcher than Fien and Boyer. But I wouldn't bet that he is right now. I haven't watched Duffy pitch enough to say whether he's an upgrade, but based on his initial struggles with AAA, I would guess probably not. Dominating guys who aren't good enough to bat 7, 8, 9 in a major league line-up doesn't do a ton for me. Now Clippard on the other hand... I'm not against going to an 8 man pen at this point to try to keep arms fresh and give new guys a shot.

We traded for Scott Diamond in March. We're approaching the 2/3rds mark of the season. Braves should take what they can get at this point. If not, I agree, Graham still offers some utility in the pen, no more or less than Tonkin I'd imagine.