Oxtung

The Twins are a half a billion dollar company that brings in hundreds of millions of dollar every year. I have to pay very good money to enjoy their product. On the flip side you are not a millionaire and I pay nothing for your podcast or for viewing Twins Daily. If you (or those at Twins Daily) choose to make a buck by advertising that is not unreasonable. You have a right to get paid for your time and effort. The Twins on the other hand are already getting paid for their time in other ways. They are just trying to double dip.

Another way to view this is our runs scored vs. runs allowed. All info is through 122 games. 2012: 538 vs. 627 = -89 2013: 487 vs. 555 = -68 2014: 515 vs. 556 = -41 The Twins pitching doesn't seem to have improved overall but the offense is slightly better. Anyone know where I can check 2013 team pitching stats through August 18th?

I'll second what kab said. I'm not worried about 2014 anymore except for how it translates into returning the twins to respectability and the playoffs in the future. As such I wouldnt care if the twins brought Bartlett back and tossed him in CF. If the twins think Santana is their SS of the mid term then that's where he should be playing. I can see that you're more concerned about how the lineup looks today, and that's entirely valid, I just don't have the same viewpoint and as such we disagree.

As I said in the Santana thread, Escobar had a fantastic May at the plate. Since then he has really come back to earth. .245/.290/.356/.645 is his slash line since June 1 (59 games and 222 PA). That is below average even at SS for a starter. His defense has been ok but certainly not great. Santana isn't an .800 OPS player that he is showing right now but his speed and range make him the better SS prospect, IMO. Escobar is a utility player and has been all along.

Do we know that Escobar is the better glove? His defensive metrics at SS (admittedly with a SSS) are ok but nothing special. Some actually consider him below average. They all seem to agree that he makes the routine plays well but he doesn't seem to make many of the difficult plays. Even if Escobar is currently the better defender, is he long term? Santana was frequently the defensive player of the year coming through the minors. How could we know after only 16 innings of Santana at SS? If the Twins view Santana's future at SS then what difference does it make who is manning the OF in a lost season? At this point the decisions being made should be about what makes this team the best in 2015 and beyond. If that means Escobar plays CF for a month before he's replaced there, so be it. We can always pick up a FA this offseason. To be clear, I think this problem does stem from the FO decisions early this season w/r to CF and Gardy coaching for his job probably has something to do with the playing time distribution, but I think those are both poor excuses at this point. The Twins finally have some pieces of the future arriving and they should be maximizing those opportunities.

Many here have mentioned that Escobar is hitting the ball so well. Only that isn't borne out in the statistics. He had a great May where he had an .841 OPS, however since then he has a .245/.290/.356/.645 slash line. While that is tolerable if accompanied by great fielding, which is debatable, let's not put him on some pedestal. He is a mediocre short stop at best. If Danny Santana is the future at SS as the Twins envision then why isn't he playing there? Escobar certainly shouldn't be blocking him. If it is because of the OF situation then claim another OF off waivers or let Escobar/Nunez play out there. Playing Santana out of position just to get another win (or even three) this season is stupid.

Bollinger reporting that the Twins might DL Arcia instead of sending anyone down. I think your Deduno guess is a good one. Ultimately we know Hughes, Gibson, Nolasco and two of Pino, Milone, May will be in the rotation. I would assume one of them will eventually go down, Pino being a good guess since he seems to have less of a future with the Team. In the pen Perkins, Fien, Duensing and Thielbar all are guaranteed spots. That puts the team at 9 guaranteed spots with 2 or 3 remaining for Burton, Deduno, Swarzak and Pressly. Personally I think Pressly is pretty safe. He has pitched pretty well and only just called up. TLDR: I think Pino will be sent down after this next start and I think that a bullpen piece gets traded/DFA'd.

You both make valid points from the Twins FO perspectives. I just disagree with them. I think the two big kickers here for me are first, he was signed to a two year contract, and second, there were other better options (no matter what you were looking for) available. Now not all those options panned out (though several did) but that is hind sight and irrelevant. Regardless, nothing stated here makes me think signing below average veterans is a good idea.

Yup those were the stats but what was the value you speak of? In order for it to have value the Twins must have gained something. I don't see anything gained. I don't see the Twins are better off because of his 31 starts.

Can you explain to me what the Twins actually got from those 31 starts? I don't see the value in them I guess.

For sure the Twins won't always have above average players in every position. However, there is a difference between calling up a minor league place holder making minimum and signing a below average aging veteran that they have to pay quite a bit for while he is, in the Twins organization at least, guaranteed a roster spot barring a complete implosion. Kevin Correia is the later. I honestly see nothing he provides that the Twins couldn't have gotten from a younger player that isn't guaranteed a roster spot.

If Hughes, Gibson, Nolasco are our 1-3 pitchers next year we are a sub-.500 team again. On a competitive team they are 3-5. Will the Twins bring in a legit top of the rotation pitcher? Will May and Meyer get a shot early next season? Will May or Meyer pitch the way we hope and become the top of the rotation pitchers we hope for? I don't know the answers to these questions but we had better hope some of these come true or we are in for another long season in 2015. On a side note, outside of Detroit the starting pitching is very up in the air in the central next season. The Indians could have a very nice rotation if somethings come together but KC and the Sox have big holes just like the Twins.

Yup. I was responding to another poster that was complaining about adhering to the above strategy insisting that there was no data to back it up. Instead the twins were supposed to let him pitch out the season regardless of his IP because there was no more risk this season or next because of it. My point, clearly poorly worded, was that neither has any data. It is a judgement call either way and it's hard to fault the Twins because they're erring on the side of caution.

It's amazing how two people can look at the same statistics and come to two different conclusions. I look at these and think there is no reason to sign someone who is below average but can go everyday. There seem to be 4 options; from best to worst: 1)Good player healthy all season 2/3) Good player injured part time / Bad player healthy full time 4) Bad Player injured part of season / Bad player is so bad they are released. If the good player that is hurt and the Bad play that is healthy are worth roughly the same why would I ever take the bad player just because he might be "healthy"? At least with the good "injury prone" player there is the chance of a great season.

I'm assuming this is just AL?

If there is no science backing up the 150 innings limit then there certainly isn't any science backing up your assertion that he is just as likely to get injured at 200 innings this year as spring training next season. Lacking any science it just comes down to a judgement call.

Sending position players to AAA doesn't help the reliever situation which is really where the back up is right now in the system. Sticking Meyer in the pen, besides having no upside, just takes a spot away to evaluate a player whose future is in question. Again, regardless of how Meyer does in his 15 or so innings he is in the same position come spring 2015. It changes nothing. On the other hand 15 innings could be beneficial in determining who of Tonkin, Oliveros, Guerra, Ibarra, Achter, Hamburger, Gilmartin, Thompson, Johnson, Pryor or Milone are should be kept/placed on the 40 man. Can any of them be counted on to replace current, more expensive and/or less reliable bullpen pieces? How do they compare to Pino, Johnson or Darnell out of the bullpen? After this wave there is the Burdi, Reed, T. Jones, Melotakis, Wimmers, Peterson, Van Steensel, Muren, Gallant and probably others I've missed. That doesn't even include all the relievers turned starter that might go back to relievers (a la Melotakis). Or injuries like Z. Jones, Bard, and Chargois if they can ever get healthy. The Twins minor leagues is absolutely packed with relief pitching talent. The only way they're going to know who has what it takes and who doesn't is by letting some of these guys get their chance. Deduno, Swarzak, Duensing, Burton and Fien are not the future. It's time we get on with the future and the relief core is a place we can do that. Just because these guys aren't at a sexy position doesn't mean they aren't every bit a prospect as May and Meyer at their respective positions. Given all the angst that people are showing for not promoting talent faster I see none of it for relievers. Meyer and May might deserve rotation spots and I'm fine with that but putting them in the bullpen does nothing for next season. In fact it hurts the evaluation of players that might be solid bullpen pieces for years to come. And for what? 15 innings of a pitcher we know will be fighting for a rotation spot next season either way?

Who started for the Saints on Monday?

I agree that it is logical he would struggle to locate his new change up at times but does that mean his walk rate would increase? He isn't going to throw his new change up he struggles to control in a 3 ball count. He's going to come with the fastball or his slider that he can control. To me it is more likely his FB control hasn't been what it should be and that the AAA hitters are willing to take the pitch. If you want to tell me his lack of control on his new change up has caused some balls to be hit hard and increased his HR rate because it has drifted across the middle of the plate too often, I would have no problems believing that. This is getting OT, my point was Meyer's control issues probably aren't just about this change up and we need to accept that. I'm not arguing that should be keeping him from the majors though.

"Struggling with consistency" is not the same as "causing his increased walk rate." Has he or a coach given any indication that his walk rate is directly related to his change up?

You're missing my point. If you move Meyer to the pen you're taking a big* risk for a very small reward. 15 innings out of the bullpen is meaningless in the context of his career. *You can define "big" any way you'd like.

The Twins aren't going to DFA veterans who aren't disastrous; that is just the way this organization is run. Schafer has a real shot at being the 4th OF heading into next season so he isn't going to get DFA'd to make room this fall and the same goes for Fryer. Right or wrong that is how the Twins view things. I'm not sure what good 40 man spots are when my point is that there are many players that need to be evaluated at the big league level this season so 40 man decisions can be made this off season.

I don't disagree with any of your points on why he should be called up but the bullpen is not the place for him. Meyer is a 6'9" guy that struggles to consistently get his body to follow the same motion, has warmed up the same way, had the same approach to a game and pitched multiple innings at a time as a starter for his entire life and whose future is in the rotation. Moving him to a pen role for a month where he will be forced to warm up several times a game, will never actually know when or if he'll pitch, put different stresses on his shoulder seems like a very poor strategy. If you want him up then put him in the rotation. Otherwise you're taking up a roster spot that could actually be used on a reliever that might actually be a reliever next season at the same time you're messing with your future ace's psyche and health.

This is significantly OT but I think you're premise that blocked shots and steals are the keys to good defense is wrong. Those things definitely help but they are the icing on the cake. The real keys to good defense are quick feet, anticipation and intelligence in varying quantities. It's much more important to be able to deny the ball and stay in front of your man when he puts the ball on the floor forcing an off balance shot than it is to pick a pocket once or twice a game.

Where is the factual evidence that the walks are because of this new change up? I must have missed that can you point me in the right direction?