DaveW

Obviously this move was made with 2014+ in mind, and that is fine, especially since we took upside over "sure thing". But looking further into it, does this really hurt the Twins that much in 2013? Span no doubt is a good player, who the Twins will miss but his production it appears is entirely replaceable. On the defensive side of things, Revere is at least as good of an overall defensive player as Span at CF and there is a very good chance that he has significantly better range in the position (quite possibly top 2 or 3 in all of baseball) Obviously his arm is garbage, but in CF I think it is "hidden" a bit and his range more then makes up for it. Span certainly had a solid bat, but I don't think we are going to miss it as much as people think. Even with his best season in 3 years Span still posted the 6th best OPS on the team behind Willingham, Mauer, Doumit, Morneau, and Plouffe. I think there is a very good chance all 5 post higher then Span again in 2013. Parmelee should be able to post a higher OPS as well, if he didn't I would be pretty disappointed/surprised. Some may argue that OPS isn't an end all be all and that since Span was a leadoff hitter OBP mattered more. Span finished 4th on the team behind Mauer, Willingham and Jamey Carroll (which is surprising). In addition he was only 9 points higher then both Morneau and Revere. A healthy Morneau should out produce that in 2013, while I actually think Revere regresses a bit. She you are looking at what would be the 5th best OBP guy on your team having to be replaced. IMO in an offensive standpoint Parmelee should be able to come close to that as well. In regards to speed, Span had it no doubt, but for every 2 steals he had it seems like he had one pick off. Revere is a better base runner no doubt, but overall the Twins will be hurt a bit on the "speed" category until a guy like Hicks comes up. Good news for the Twins is they didn't exactly run a whole lot anyways. All this isn't even factoring in that Hicks could very well be up sometime in 2012 and ultimately be a better fielder, hitter (especially in the power category) and runner then Span. So at the end of the day, while strengthening the team in the mid to long term I don't think it hurts the team much in the short term. Revere in CF is an upgrade defensively and it allows to get Parmelee a shot at playing every day. Additionally it makes Hicks and Arcia's path to the majors much easier. Pretty solid move and great timing by Ryan IMO as Spans value was unlikely to get any higher.

I think sabermetrics would say that Dave Cameron is significantly overrated. And this is coming from someone that understands and uses sabermetrics a lot. +1 Also Keith Law knows plenty about sabermetrics.... we aren't exactly talking about Joe Morgan here. I like Cameron and all, but I don't think he is even close to the end all be all on the subject, he puts a ton of personal bias into the majority of his articles, which is fine, but again like Kab says he is a over rated quite a bit.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

Deleted.

Not the greatest most legit source, but interesting none the less, often times thier ratings stay right in line with many of the more noted ones, and they also do rankings well past 100 (all the way to 500), which is 1. Interesting and 2. Beneficial for dynasty league drafts: The rankings are updated for 2013 even though most of the write ups aren't yet. Few notes: 15. Sano 30 something: Buxton 52: Rosaio 60 something: Hicks 67: Arcia 93: Meyer 97: Gibson so 7 in the top 100. Not to shabby of a start of this prospect season.

Please name these proven pitchers teams were lining up to give away

I couldn't find it for a while, I used to keep pulling it from the BYTO wiki. Had to go back to a buddies myspace profile to find it haha, also I was shocked to find that myspace is still around!

I'd prefer they bat Mauer in the leadoff hole bc IMO you want your best hitters batting the most, then find a decent hitting SS/2B to hit #2 (think Stephen Drew/Kelly Johnson) 1.Mauer 2.Drew/Johnson 3. Willingham 4. Morneau 5. Doumit 6.Parmelee 7. Plouffe 8. Whatever scrub is playing the other MI spot 9. Revere The second Hicks is ready, he moves to the leadoff spot and Mauer goes to #2

I don't know what he'll be, I like the tone of the move. They aren't going to take a lesser talent just because it is more major league ready - they took a guy that projects to be here in about 2015. What I find funny is how far of a cry this is from Span for Shields. We had some rather adamant posters around here about Span's value. I was on the James Shields boat, but even I knew it would take more then Span to land him, I believe I said Span+Rosario? At least with a guy like Meyers you potentially get a half dozen or so years of mostly cheap team control. Shields would have been most likely only a two year potential fix (but a very good one at that) I disagree on 2015 as well, I don't see any reason why he can't be ready sometime in 2014. From what I read he should be able to move from A+ into AA/AAA pretty quickly.

Its a good point. Also, not to beat a dead horse, but after posting a .800 + OPS in his first two years, Span didn't reach .680 in his next two, and posted a good but not great 105 OPS+ in 2012. Prior to Revere joining the OF, Span rated as more of an above average CF then a "great" As far as speed goes, he has 23 SB the past two years, and probably at least 10 pick offs, at some point he simply isn't an asset on the basepaths when that is the case. Is he a damn solid player? Yes Are the Twins selling him at what will probably be his high point? Yes Is he a great player without question marks? no I think a high upside top 100 prospect who is a SP is a fine and fair price. Hell there is about an 80% chance we get more out of Meyer then we did for the whole Santana haul

"low A guy" isn't an accurate description. He was in high A by the end of his first pro year, and was drafted in the first round in the most talent rich draft in the past 20-25 years. This isn't some scrub who was unknown by most. He should crack quite a few top 100 lists heading into next year, I would guess at least 3 or 4 of the MiLB.com, Baseball America, Fangraphs, ESPN, BP etc

I don't think anyone is claiming Myers is some sorta of sure deal, but he is certainly the best pitching prospect the Twins have had since Matt Garza. (Gibson could be close if it weren't for the injury) When was the last time the Twins had a guy in the system who could throw 98 AND get it over the plate?

In my mind, a 22-year-old college pitcher SHOULD dominate Low A, and probably should dominate High A. He certainly didn't do the latter, with a K rate in the 7s, albeit in 39 innings. Now, maybe he was tired or something, I don't know. I'm not saying he hurt his value. I just don't think he necessarily helped it. If we are going to play the short sample size game in 39 IP in high A, he did also have a 1.026 WHIP and a 2.31. I guess that might not meet your definition of "dominate" but most would say that a 2.31 ERA and 1.026 WHIP are pretty damn good. It almost sounds like you are looking for a reason to not like this trade so people can continue the bashing on Terry Ryan.

Derp.

The problem with getting a guy who is ready/already in the big leagues is: 1. That player may not have a lot of team control left. 2. That player probably doesn't have nearly as high of a ceiling as Meyer does. Chances are you would have to settle for an average #3/#4 with only a couple years of team control left. The Braves weren't going to give up a guy like Minor no matter how much some of us wanted to pray/believe. Meyer while not ready now, shouldn't take to much more seasoning to be ready. 2014 is only a year away after all

Entering the 2012 season, BP ranked him 5th overall among the Nationals prospect, giving him 3 stars, which is a C prospect. BA ranked him 6th overall. And I don't see a lot in his numbers last year to have changed that opinion of him. I won't dicker between calling him a C+ or a B-, and I hope he's a C prospect with some upside, but a K/9 or 9 in High-A isn't exactly other-worldly stuff, no matter what his velocity. I don't know that I would rank him in the same area you would. I'm also far from sure he'll be a top 50 prospect, or even top 100. But I'll admit, I'm far from an expert on the status of minor leaguers. You realize that prior to 2012 he had exactly 0 pitches thrown for a major league organization right? How is "nothing he did" in 2012 worthy of ranking him higher? He had a very successful 2012 IMO and it isn't all about k rate (even though a 9.7 k/9 is in fact pretty good, especially when he has a respectable BB rate, a great WHIP and a solid GB rate of about 55%) I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just think his 2012 bumps his value up quite a bit.

Yup, and that was prior to a very strong 2012 season with a 9.7 k rate, 1.101 WHIP and 2.86 ERA. He is a B/borderline B+ prospect at this point who has some nice upside.

Fangraphs likes the trade a lot more for the Nats, however. Span for a top 50 prospect seems totally reasonable; I can't imagine the Twins acquiring Meyer if they don't he will start. That's because Cameron is strictly a numbers guy (unless it comes to his beloved Mariners of course) Yes, Span had a very impressive WAR that was bolstered by a very strong UZR. But lets be honest, Span benefited a TON in 2011 and 2012 from having Revere in the OF as well. Notice how his UZR in CF doubled from 2010 to 2011/2012? This isn't saying Span isn't a good CF, just that he isn't as great as the defensive metrics would lead you to believe. The Twins did the right thing in this case by trading him while his value was high, as much as I like Span he did have his warts, injury issues for one, and in both 2010 and 2011 he failed to reach a .690 OPS. I think its a very fair trade, and if Meyer can reach his potential or anything close it ends up a win for the Twins since: 1. They have a stop gap CF in Revere. 2. They have a couple stud CF's who should be ready within a year or two.

How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class. Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

1. Sano 2. Buxton 3. Hicks 4. Meyer 5. Arcia 6. Gibson 7. Rosario Not a bad farm system.

I am a huge fan of this move!

Welcome to the offseason. At least this isn't BYTO, where any derailed thread had at least a 75% chance of descending into photos of overweight women in Halloween costumes. You rang?

lol!

I would gladly trade Span for a good young 2B/SS as well. We need pitching, but lets not forget we have plenty of other holes in the majors/minors as well.

I'd just like to go through the teams you mentioned.... Phillies - Have lots of money. So much that the speculation is that they're chasing Hamilton and could drop back to Bourn. Span being cheap isn't unvaluable, but it also isn't necessary like it was for the Braves. Texas - ditto Rays - Lots of pitching and they need a CFer, and they need him to be cheap. But here's the thing - they were never going to be "in" on any of these bigger free agent center fielders. If a trade was going to get done with them, it could have been done weeks ago. And losing Upton and the Braves off the market doesn't hurt their bargaining position, just the Twins. The Twins and Rays might yet come together, but at this point we can assume they have talked and didn't find a deal. And at the very least, this hurts the Twins leverage. Reds - I just don't see the major-league ready pitching that Ryan is looking for in this organization. I think they can work out a trade, and that trade might net them some future arms, but that is looking further to the future than I think Ryan wants to look. So, yes, there are still fish in the sea, but I don't find them nearly as appealing. Does Texas really have that much money to spend? I don't think they have as much as some people believe.