greengoblinrulz

Its a much larger question than firing him/not firing him. IF not, what do you do with Gardy goin into his last yr of his contract?? Do you extend him after the last 2 yrs (which is what will happen) or let him play out his last yr. What do you do with his coaches, whom many believe the blame lies with. This isnt an organization that does things differently regardless of whats happenning thru baseball. They believe their philosiphy is correct & will rely on 6 of last 11 yrs as division champs instead of being one of worst teams in MLB the past 2 yrs.

Part of my problem with how we run the minor leagues. We NEVER have a young player that succeeds in the majors .....EVER. Justin was 26, Hunter 26, Span 25, etc. Players are not given the propere instuction to be up at a young age & MN is NOT goin to give them that time during the majors. How many teams go with young players, but not MN. We love the 25yr old Pedro Florimon/Brian Dozier, 31yr old Matt Carson type of rookies cause they DONT push their younger guys (who KNOW they have no shot of reaching the majors till 24/25)

There is a difference in HS draftees vs collegiate also but MN handles them the same.....go to ELIZ then BEL then Ft Myerse etc.....college guys need to be pushed much much faster in this organiation. What frustrates me is that MN advances players due to age not due to success BUT then turns around & promotes a guy like Steve Liddle (just an ex). They just dont promote drafted college guys (outside of rounds 1 or 2) as quickly when they show success......gotta do it according to team guidlelines I guess!!!! This is how you end up with a 25yr old Brian Dozier not ever being in AAA for ex. MN tends to argue they place their older players 'where they have the best probability to succeed' Heard that from Jim Rantz far too often instead of challenging a guy & see if better competition brings it out in the player.

9. Romy Jimenez (OF, Elizabethton)) - as a 21 year old, Jimenez was a little old for the Appy League, but did put up big numbers (.347/.439/.669) with 8 homers with 19 walks v 25 Ks despite missing a third of the season with injury. Coming off an injury plagued 2011, Jimenez needs to show he can stay healthy if he hopes to make the jump if Arizona had him with those numbers, he'd skip Low A.....MN may send him back to ELIZ since he missed time to injury:banghead:

When starting this post, it wasnt totally about Eaton/Roberts but rather about how slow everday players are promoted. Can you name the last everyday player to make his MLB debut 2 full yrs after their draft....i cant as Mauer was the beginning of his 3rd Other teams fairly regularly do. Why not here. Im just frustrated but its not only the FOffice as Gardy has never been a fan of younger players....he prefers the Carsons over the Hicks

2010 Draft difference in 2 same aged (2 month diff), same size, same basic collegiate competition MN took 3 yr college player Nate Roberts in the 6th round out of High Point and assigned him to Rookie Lg ELIZ. In 35 gms there, he had a line of .336/.444/.547 w/30r 10doubles 1triple 5hr 17rbi 29k 21bb 5/7sb. Very solid Same draft, ARIZ took 4 yr college player Adam Eaton in the 19th round out of Miami (Ohio) and also assigned him to Rookie Lg Missoula. In 68gms there .385/.500/.575 48runs 14doubles 4triples 7hr 37rbi 44k 35bb 20/28sb Both excellent debuts....what do they both do next??? 2011 MN sends Roberts to Low A. No problem as that is MNs way of doin things & they rarely deviate from that. Roberts battles some knee problems limiting him to 68gms .302/.443/.446 55runs 12doubles 4triples 4hr 34rbi 48k 28bb 9/13sb ARIZ decides to challenge Eaton in High A as he's now their #30 prospect Plays 65gms .332/.455/.492 54runs 15doubles 3triples 6hr 39rbi 41k 42bb 24/32sb.....then assigned to AA for 2nd half ...56gms .302/.409/.429 31runs 7doubles 4triples 4hr 28rbi 35k 30bb 10/16sb After 1+ season, MN has the higher drafted player 2 levels below ARIZs...ok there is the next yr. 2012 MN has Roberts repeat Low A. Hmmm. Ok, still havin minor knee issues I guess. 76gms .299/.433/.427 60runs 18doubles 3triples 4hr 33rbi 37k 44bb 27/35sb....no promotion in season as MN decides its more important to have him play in Low A playoffs, before crowds of less than 1K nightly, than go to High A for better competition....despite their being no OFs in Ft Myers playing better than him. Now their #12 prospect, ARIZ has Eaton also repeat AA....FOR 11GMS .300/.450/.325 11runs 1double 3rbi 8k 6bb 6/7sb....nothing earthshattering but they stil want to challenge him. Then up to AAA.....119gms @ hitting friendly PCL .381/.456/.539 119runs 46doubles 5triples 7HR 45rbi 76k 59bb 38/48sb ARIZs NOT done..MLB promotion 5gms 10/25 .400/.423/.480 6runs 2doubles 3k 1bb 1/1sb So MN takes the higher choice, he has great success but still has that player stuck in Low A for some reason. ARIZ has taken the lower player, challenged him by promoting him quickly up level & have found out he's a MLB player. This is only one piece of a bigger puzzle but its the reasoning on why MN has had one of the absolute worst records in baseball the past 2 yrs as this is how they veiw their minor league players/develpment..... things like playing in minor league playoffs bein more important than challenging a successful player to a new level or 2

They havent been using this OF as Willy isnt playin the OF....its been Doumit & Mastro. Gardy has always talked about how he loves defense, but he's always managed the opposite. As long as you catch the balls you get to, he could care less about any lack of range at any position.

Justin is still a good player but he's not longer a great player. With his health issues, there is no way MN should give him an extension. So what is the upside to keeping him next yr since you wont contend?? Only reason NOT to deal him is because you cannot get a legit deal for him. Unfortuanately, Ryan doesnt see it that way & will keep him/let him finish the season & walk away with MN possibly getting a draft pick or Justin acceptin a 1yr arb deal.

This is were several clubs would take Tonkins/Achters dominant half seasons in High A & get em fasttracked to majors by having them start in New Brit.....no chance that happens unfortunately. Top 4 all seem like legit prospects for next year.

Guys repeatedly make the majors who do not have spectacular, but rather very solid minor league numbers (look at Parmelee). Regardless of whether he's a starter, he's goin to be a solid bench contributor and there is extreme value there. Probably wont begin the season with MN as 3rd C just like Butera didnt this year, but joined them in May. Of course, a 3rd C isnt necessary to anyone else than Gardy...so maybe next year we wont see one that early or if at all. This year in AFL, he will be a fulltime starting C where last year, he was the backup C....lot easier to evaluate.

so only a fraction of the game gets you into the HOF, not a well rounded game?? Major reason I don NOT endorse Frank Thomas as a HOF next year. Just my opinion....not a fan of the DH Shortstops, like Larkin, or other positions should be measured against others at their position and NOT against everyone else. Part of my bias agaisnt Crime Dog, as he wasnt the best at his position when he played. Absolutely think a guy like Trammal should be thought of more, and also Whitaker

Been their 2nd best starter & best righthanded pitcher all year. Gardy still has NO faith in him & gets him out of games ASAP (understand he had a rib issue last nite), but overall..... Still find it humourous that MN has failed to state that Cole is currently on a career high in innings (combned 157.2IP) and first time in 3yrs he's been over 100. Even his 87.2 MLB innings are just short of last yrs 90 or 2010's 91.2 With 3 starts remaining (6 innings each??), he's gonna come about 5 innings short of his innings total for the last 2 yrs combined. Funny how the team makes innings a drop dead mark (Diamond) when they want to, but with others they sweep it under the rug. The organization has stated publicly/privately to media that Cole has fringe MLB stuff, but he gets guys out pretty consistently (Anthony Slama anyone??)

Not disagreeing, but are we saying that Chicago isnt big market enough for a player to get the correct recognition??

actually I hope they win it all so in the future Strasbug has no ties to the championship team as he wont be on the playoff roster. Wash has 2 ace type pitchers left & a solid 4some left to get thru the playoffs. If they do win it, dont get back in the next 4 yrs....its guarranteed Strasberg leaves as a FA & that will show Rizzo how important the future is to a team.

wasnt sure how serious the question was........it was???

on ESPN Boros is talkin about info he & team have on young pitchers & the innings they pitch at early ages. He cites clients Alex Fernandez/Steve Avery as 2 players who's arm didnt recover from early 20s abuse & why they need to limit innings (prolonging paychecks for him, of course). Found it funny that he didnt use another one of his clients, Greg Maddux, who debuted at age 20, pitched 5000 innings & never had an arm problem. There is nothing that you can do to limit arm problems.....most will get em, some wont. No doctor alive can predict who will/wont & when

Maddux and Glavine will easily make it. Not sure why you are throwing Jack Morris into the mix, Morris is nowhere near HOF caliber IMO. Was he a great "big game pitcher?" yes. But he has a career 39.3 WAR (145th overall amongst all pitchers) and he had a 105 ERA+ He was a solid #2, but solid #2's don't go into the hall of fame. Also the thought that Bagwell definately used is backed by zero evidence whatsoever, his name never came up in any reports, no? I'd put Piazza in the hall no doubt, dude is the best hitting catcher of all time (even those his defense was bad, he still stuck at the position) I have no problem with WAR as a stat...none. But I quoted Dave Parker's WAR as a -0.1 in 86 when he was 5th in MVP w/31HR 116RBI....that means he's less than a replacement player....dont think so. He was -1.5 the next yr with 26hr 97rbi......WAR just needs to be used in context. Morris was the team ACE on 3 different World Series Champions....not a #2 winning a total of 58gms in those 3yrs. Have no problem using his ERA against him (even in the DH AL) & thats why he's had to wait, but he will get voted in this year as the best pitcher of his middle 14yr era (79/92) when he was the only guy with over 190wins (233) & pitched 500 more innings than anyone during this period (reason for higher ERA?) while finishing 2nd in Ks, 3rd in WAR @ 51.8 (behind Ryan/Clemens). He was the pitcher of his era & that included Nolan Ryan Morris was the third best pitcher on the Twins in 1991. Yes, he had a great world series, but he was the third best over the course of the season. Same thing in 1992 with Toronto. A couple clutch games in the world series does not make you a hall of famer. Morris arguement depends on your value of wins. I absolutely believe they 'can' be overvalued depending on the situation. Morris, however, was a guy who pitched late into games. In 92, he had 21wins but they also started Morris gm 1 of both ALCS & WS meaning Cito Gaston had him as their #1. 91, he wasnt the 3rd best pitcher...he was the most consistent as Erickson was first half, Tap was 2nd & Jack was solid all yr long. He pitched over 240 innings in both of those years.....ace style.

Maddux and Glavine will easily make it. Not sure why you are throwing Jack Morris into the mix, Morris is nowhere near HOF caliber IMO. Was he a great "big game pitcher?" yes. But he has a career 39.3 WAR (145th overall amongst all pitchers) and he had a 105 ERA+ He was a solid #2, but solid #2's don't go into the hall of fame. Also the thought that Bagwell definately used is backed by zero evidence whatsoever, his name never came up in any reports, no? I'd put Piazza in the hall no doubt, dude is the best hitting catcher of all time (even those his defense was bad, he still stuck at the position) I have no problem with WAR as a stat...none. But I quoted Dave Parker's WAR as a -0.1 in 86 when he was 5th in MVP w/31HR 116RBI....that means he's less than a replacement player....dont think so. He was -1.5 the next yr with 26hr 97rbi......WAR just needs to be used in context. Morris was the team ACE on 3 different World Series Champions....not a #2 winning a total of 58gms in those 3yrs. Have no problem using his ERA against him (even in the DH AL) & thats why he's had to wait, but he will get voted in this year as the best pitcher of his middle 14yr era (79/92) when he was the only guy with over 190wins (233) & pitched 500 more innings than anyone during this period (reason for higher ERA?) while finishing 2nd in Ks, 3rd in WAR @ 51.8 (behind Ryan/Clemens). He was the pitcher of his era & that included Nolan Ryan

Id say this was his possible back tightness, but its hard to tell as gardy yanks Cole out ASAP in every start. Gives him no rope, but he's been the 2nd best starter by a long ways......of course he's not a MLB pitcher when it comes to 'stuff' either says the team/media.

popular arguement that Bonds was a HOFer when he started juicing in 98 already (400HR/SBs). I agree with it. He got caught up in it but everyone pretty much agrees he didnt use till then. McGuire & Sosa were pretty much HR hitters or bust.....wouldnt go with em anyways. Wouldnt even think of Clemens till Maddux/Glavine/Morris make it. Many people assume Piazza was a user (myself included...retired before testing), he's eligible this yr with Schilling (not till Morris for me) & Biggio (huge fan....over Bagwell who used IMO) Larry Walker was a sensational hitter but he's not hurt by steroids but by playing a huge block of time in Coors Field & he's at 22% after 3yrs.

on steroids with 'Crime Dawg'....fact that he maintained such a high level during his mid 30s, in the middle of the steroid era, when players of the decade before started fading fast in early/mid 30s makes me unsure. Roids isnt about size/bulk but about strength/recovery many times. Duke Snider took 10 years to make the Hall....definately not great, by defination of his voting media peers. Drysdale, was the Blyleven of his era...also makin it in his 10th year. 209wins & 6.5K/9 arent mindblowing great....just very good IMO Vizquel is a guy I would like to see get in but not on his offensive numbers, which are extremely solid, but as the elite defensive shortstop of his era. I think Alan Trammel is also a guy who is getting shortchanged as a SS. No problem with Larkin, but he made it quicker than I thought.....12time All Star, 9time Silver Slugger, 2 gold gloves, won a World Series and an MVP----pretty solid if not great.

There are just as many guys from 60s/70s that you could argue shouldnt be in either IMO if you are goin with the HOVGood....Duke Snider, Don Drysdale, Lou Boudreau, Bob Lemon, etc among many. Those older players are now just known as HOFers, but they were also the Dawson/Blyleven/Rice's of their era

Hey Thrylos. I do not know much about this subject other than what I typed (other than I knew Molitor was a user). What is the story on the cocaine thing? It was called the Pittsburg drug trials......Dale Berra, Lee Lacy, Lee Mazzilli, John Milner,, Dave Parker,, and Rod Scurry — and other notable major league players — Claudell Washingtin, Willie Mays Aikens, Vida Bue, Enols Cabell ,Al Holland, Hernandez, Jeffrey Leonard, Tim Raines, Joaquin Andujar and Lonnie Smith testified with immunity in 1985 against certain dealers. Raines admitted to sliding headfirst to not break the coke vials that he carried on him as he snorted during games. Milner admitted to buying uppers from HOFers Willie Stargell & WIllie Mays. Molitor wasnt involved but 7 players were suspended for a yr, 4 for 60days but were allowed to play if they donated 5-10% of their salary to charity.

Parker was the first million dollar player, was a 2 time batting champ, 7time all star, 3 time gold glover, won 2 World Series as well as an MVP with a 2nd, 2 3rd's & a 5th showing how dominant he was. His coke use & his knee issues (had em both replaced) blew his 81/83 seasons....anything outta those 3 & he may have some more HOF ammo. He was really good. Think he shoulda made it before Dawson/Rice. As for Murphy, no doubt his last 4 yrs really hurt his induction. He just couldnt get to 400HRs (at that time was a milestone for a HOF), but is a perfect example of how sometimes the HOF numbers of that era dont tell the whole story. He didnt have the hits because he was a walk machine, well before OBP was important and scored a ton more runs than Dawson/Rice

The couple threads on HOFers had me go back & look at some numbers & they are astounding. Joe Carter didnt get the votes (3.8%) to last past a year. Guys like Dave Parker are greatly forgotten how dominant they were (his WAR in 86/87 was a combined -1.6 when he had 57HR 213RBI...how's that happen??) but he's lasted the maximum 15yrs on ballot in mid teens for votes. Steve Garvey's first year was 41.6% but his last, 15yrs later, were 21.1%....he only had about 7 solid yrs, ala Tony Oliva