HOF controversy revisited

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, cHawk said:

A cheater by definition is someone who breaks rules to gain an advantage.

Steroids and other PEDs were banned in 1991, but the league didn’t test for them until 2003. So if Bonds was using PEDs from 1986 until then, the league would have no way of knowing. Even when they began testing, Bonds was still hitting like a deity at his age. There’s no evidence that Bonds cheated, so assuming he did is idiotic.

If you want to talk about Ortiz, that’s a bit more complicated, as he did fail a drug test (in 2003), but he hasn’t failed one since, and 2003 was the beginning of his stardom with the Red Sox. Because of that, I think Ortiz should make it in because his numbers would get him in even if you nullified the first 6 seasons of his career.

Wow, this post brought me back to the good ol' ESPN forums in the mid-2000s. First, and this really isn't relevant at all, the definition of a cheater is "a person who acts dishonestly in order to gain an advantage." But that's just semantics. Essentially no one in their right mind thinks that using PEDS in 1997 or 2007 or 2017 wasn't "cheating." If you disagree with that, you're on your own island with a few brave ESPN posters from SF. 

Secondly, I'm really not sure what to say to someone who didn't think there was evidence Bonds cheated. In his perjury trial, his lawyers conceded to the jury that Bonds used PEDS. A decade earlier, Bonds told a grand jury that he used PEDS.

As to Ortiz, beside the failed test, Ortiz continued to argue that PEDS don't make players better. He continued to argue that the PED crackdown was aimed at players from the Dominican Republic. And he continued to train with Angel Presenal, one of the few trainers that baseball banned for life because of PEDS. I'm also not sure his numbers are as great as they seem. Because he played in a high offense (PEDS) era, his numbers are somewhat inflated. But he was top 10 in position player WAR only three times (never top 5). Edgar Martinez did it 7x. His 141 OPS+ is really good but non-HOFers like Lance Berkman and Albert Belle were better, 

I think Ortiz gets in because of the Boston connection but he really shouldn't. 

[cHawk]

19 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Wow, this post brought me back to the good ol' ESPN forums in the mid-2000s. First, and this really isn't relevant at all, the definition of a cheater is "a person who acts dishonestly in order to gain an advantage." But that's just semantics. Essentially no one in their right mind thinks that using PEDS in 1997 or 2007 or 2017 wasn't "cheating." If you disagree with that, you're on your own island with a few brave ESPN posters from SF. 

Secondly, I'm really not sure what to say to someone who didn't think there was evidence Bonds cheated. In his perjury trial, his lawyers conceded to the jury that Bonds used PEDS. A decade earlier, Bonds told a grand jury that he used PEDS.

As to Ortiz, beside the failed test, Ortiz continued to argue that PEDS don't make players better. He continued to argue that the PED crackdown was aimed at players from the Dominican Republic. And he continued to train with Angel Presenal, one of the few trainers that baseball banned for life because of PEDS. I'm also not sure his numbers are as great as they seem. Because he played in a high offense (PEDS) era, his numbers are somewhat inflated. But he was top 10 in position player WAR only three times (never top 5). Edgar Martinez did it 7x. His 141 OPS+ is really good but non-HOFers like Lance Berkman and Albert Belle were better, 

I think Ortiz gets in because of the Boston connection but he really shouldn't. 

Okay fine, I’ll admit that my post was a bad one. Everything you said is correct.

[gunnarthor]

34 minutes ago, cHawk said:

Okay fine, I’ll admit that my post was a bad one. Everything you said is correct.

Woah, that's not how the internet works at all. ?

[cHawk]

To put it in simple terms: Bonds and Ortiz have both been caught cheating. I don’t want cheaters to make the HoF. That being said, Ortiz probably will. Not as sure about Bonds.