FargoFanMan

These games are fun and all but it truly shows the sad state of the franchise. I remember when we were looking ahead to 2018 with Buxton and Sano putting up MVP numbers. Remember when? 2018 future lineup C Turner/Garver 1B Kepler 2B Dozier SS Gordon 3B Sano LF Rosario CF Buxton RF AB Walker DH Mauer/Palka SP Santana SP Berrios SP Meyer SP May SP Stewart/Jay RP Rogers RP Chargois RP Reed RP Romero RP Burdi RP Melotakis Let’s hope 2022 brings us closer than 2018

The Cano that was 30+ years old and still delivered 3 above solid years in Seattle? Are talking about the 29 year old Grienke that rivaled only his own teammate in LA at a modest 20M+. Or is it the 32 year old Grienke that has fared pretty damn well for his age it’s just the albatross annual salary that may be a bit much for anyone not named Kershaw? These two guys are I believe the exception and not the rule when it comes to FA’s. I’m talking about a guy who is 26. Plays 160+ games a year. Without injury is gonna put up at least 280/330/450. Embraces being the face of a franchise. Plays stellar 3rd base and very solid SS. Of course that is gonna cost you money. After 4 years and it’s not a fit then you trade him. He’s only 30 then if there’s not already an opt out somewhere in there. This guy has at least 4 more prime years barring major injury which is covered by an insurance I’m sure. If not this guy though then who? That’s my question. The answer? Nobody. Harpers close but injury prone and doesn’t provide the glove. I’d pay Manny a front loaded contract maybe in the 35-40M range over the first 5 of 10 years with a few opt outs. Then you have something to build around and he’s instantly the most recognized face of Minnesota sports and more. Who’s next? A retired Mauer? Parise? Guys who are either retired or washed up?

Perfect way to spend it would be the superstar FA not named Harper. Beyond the same old Minnesota adage of not “wanting” to spend money on FA’s why wouldn’t you on this guy? Yeah it would take an exorbitant amount of money. Yeah you would be signing a guy to a supposedly lifetime contract. Or close to it. Yeah he has so called issues. But nothing even close to the former Manny. This guy just turned 26. Plays everyday. Entering his prime just now. Expects superstar from himself. The risk reward is a lot different in this case than signing a 30 year old player that’s seen his best years in the rear view. Barring a significant injury you make that bet. Who’s the face of this franchise right now? Anybody? Who? Oh that’s right. A guy who played platinum level CF and put up MVP numbers for half a season and just as well didn’t play at all in 2018 and consistently hits .200 when playing. Or maybe it was the guy who was an all star slugger in 2017 for half a season. The same guy who was demoted to A ball in 2018. A ball. Or the 38 year old slugger we just signed. He is surely the face of the franchise. Really?!?!? Well, there is this Berrios guy. He is pretty solid. Maybe a future star soon. Not an ace by any means yet but solid. Or maybe one of these prospects that did well in A ball last summer. A ball. Maybe want to look at the CFer and slugger I spoke of before. Oh wait. Maybe we should sign both of those guys that have proven nothing in the majors to long term contracts. I mean they are a year or two younger, have proven nothing and would come at a great price to continue faltering year after year. That will surely cost 30 million. Ahhh. Let’s just stand with our hands in our pockets and not do anything for a few more years. I mean it only took the royals 30 years to return to relevance. We’re a third of the way there. Maybe we get lucky and it only takes 10 years. Heck, I’ll only be 40 something by then. I’m not advocating going all in. But why not? Maybe it doesn’t work out. Give it a few years. If it doesn’t work out you could still get something for him. If not. What’s 350 million for a pro sports team that’s worth a billion? I just think we need to do something. If not. Fine. But if there was a time to spend why not on this guy? Let the firestorm begin. Aaaaaaand go.

Very good points from both parts 1 and 2. Maybe in 3 you could go in depth of the horrible deadline deals that did and didn’t happen. One of my major points I always take is the trades that never happened at the deadline to bolster those solid teams going into the playoffs. Other than the Shannon Stewart trade Ryan never made the big trade to push the team into the final months and into October. Sure hindsight is always 20/20 but never once were we even in the running for a big upgrade. Obviously those prospects we were unwilling to trade flopped but I would have been more ok in that we tried. Ryan always sat on his hands and never pushed all the chips to the middle and went for it and that was one of the biggest things that frustrated me.

Double standard??? It’s obviously just the night and day standard of the old and new. Joe Mauer could have come into camp 75 lbs overweight and still bat 300 and be a star. And the old staff would have let that happen as the prodigal son. Miguel Sano on the other point seems to need the motivation now that he’s made it to the bigs at least. Once you get to the show everything goes into another tier. The true stars have the talent and an overwhelming drive to be successful. Sano has one of those it seems at the moment but the staff now is going to hold him accountable as well. Maximizing your investment basically. He should do this on his own but just like anything else he got too comfortable it seemed. Let’s hope we see the mvp potential out of this guy. The front office is at least doing what they can do to maximize that potential. Let’s just hope the other end wants it as much. Same with Buxton. I think Sano is easier to fix as he has proven he can. Conditioning will do wonders for him. Buxton on the other side is a whole different situation.

This is true. Yet where were we on trades? Gerrit Cole could have and was had for very little. Nothing resembling a haul by any means. Carlos Santana was just had for very little and possess a good skill of getting on base. There’s lots of trades that could be made that get a few solid veterans and high upside guys on this team. Add that to a young core. Then add a Schoop signing. I would have preferred LeMahieu but if you add little signings like that with a big move or 2 all of a sudden you have something. All the while you still have Lewis and Kirilloff. Guys like Gonsalves and Thorpe may get traded. But these guys that people around here covet are not guys that move the needle that much compared to a major league asset. Even Graterol and Romero. I’d rather have Cole or any other Major league upgrade than a slim chance of a star in say 4 years. That’s where this franchise got handcuffed in the 2000’s. When we could have traded guys like Gibson or Hicks for legitimate upgrades to push those teams over that threshold to win a championship we played it safe. I would have rather seen a World Series in 2009 or any year they made it than to win a division title 2 years in a row. Like the royals did. They sacrificed the future for a World Series. Yet isn’t that the goal of baseball? To win championships? We keep waiting for the next great wave of prospects. At what point does that become futile

I’m not convinced Terry Ryan isn’t serving as the great Oz behind some curtain in the front office. Magically giving advice to Falvine as they scratch their heads on how to run a Major League Baseball team.

Morneau had potential. He showed flashes and took the next step. We also had a Hunter in his prime. The next coming of Ted Williams in Mauer. Many other players who had already established consistency beyond Morneau. Nobody on this team is showing anything of flashes besides Berrios. We’re on the edge of having to go into total rebuild if we see nothing this year. We have no veteran presence on this team at the moment. Nobody we can count on as being consistent. Unless we make some deals and have a few surprise performances this team is looking more like 100 losses than even 80 wins. How long do we have to wait? 5? 10? 15 years? Our farm system is deep but does not have the star power to put together a contender if this season goes awry. There’s a lot riding here and where do we go if this season falls off a cliff?

Agreed. I’m so sick of these deals. Looks like we’re riding on Buxton and Sano to have mvp years. Even if they did we don’t have enough to compete. Maybe more will happen but I’m not counting on it. We’ll just wait until Lewis and Kirilloff come up as they will be the saviors. Then we’ll wait 5 years for them to develop only to be busts. In that time we’ll have had a few more top 5 picks. Wait for them to come up only to be busts. Maybe one or two of these guys pan out but nothing that would constitute a solid core and before we know it we’re the Royals or Pirates from the 90’s to the 2000’s. Call me in 30 years when this team is good again. Jeez. When are we gonna try to go for something. I’d rather have a good year or two and then a few bad instead of waiting for these prospects. All I hear about is prospects. When are we gonna have real Mlb ball players? That’s what I want. I want to have a reason to watch a twins game. We waited for how long for the current group? How’s that going? I hope they prove me wrong. I’m taking the opinion the rest of the country has always had. That being the Twins are and always will be a joke and will not accomplish anything until they start putting Mlb players on the field instead of prospects.

Apparently this is the group we’re going with this year. We’ll maybe add a few dumpster dives like usual and hope everyone has an above average season. Paul Goldschmidt just went to St. Louis for basically nothing. Luke weaver could be a decent pitcher and Kelly may be a decent catcher. With the depth of our system we could have definitely made this work and maybe we get a shot at resigning him. Either way this guy is a perennial top 10 mvp vote every year. 900 ops guy. This team is being handed to a group of kids that haven’t proven any consistency. I’m not complaining but jeez. We’re either gonna be surprised or this will be another mediocre season. Are we sure Terry Ryan isn’t hiding behind a curtain somewhere running this team still?

I like it. I had advocated for Grandal but hell why not go for Realmuto. Shores up a key position and you need a solid catcher. And this guy hits. I see that as a plus. Gordon, Gonsalves and another lower pitcher. Maybe take the small, descent glimmer of Stewart and add him in there with another 20-30 prospect. Not sure if that adds up as far as a trade. Adds another strong player. Move Polanco over to second. We need a strong defensive shortstop. With this team we have to play good defense to even think of competing. Maybe sign an innings eater with a little upside. I’d like to try for Keuchel. May not be in the cards but he seems a fit. Probably another solid season or two in him. If not him roll with what we have or make a trade for similar or better. I think that leaves us pretty solid if the rest of our core performs to even 2017 levels.

I have said for a while that Stewart is the real deal. Maybe not the dominant Ace that we thought when drafting him but you still don’t know. He was all upside when drafted. Very raw across the board. Hasn’t been lights out but solid his whole career for the most part. Jay on the other hand was a mystery when drafted and has been since. I think he’s gone this winter.

Pitching and defense. Two things this team is clearly lacking. What’s the consensus on Dallas Keuchel? Not really an”Ace” but no slouch. Probably the best we could get and might have a year or two of elite/solid seasons left. Jose Iglesias? Good defense. Younger. Can cover more ground than Polanco and make up for sano’s limited mobility. Was thinking Yasmani Grandal possibly as well. Seems to be decent and gets on base. Jason Castro seems to be good but it seemed once he went down we just had a black hole there. As much as Garver and astudillo are fun. Can they be counted on for a full season. Maybe someone with a bit more quality above Bobby Wilson can be found for defense and running a staff a few days a week. I believe Polanco is a second baseman and when Molitor and company realize that the better. That’s my thinking. The relief core can be found within the organization. At some point you just have to hand some of these guys the ball and let them learn. Jake Reed? John Curtis? Shortstop, a starter, and possibly a catcher. These positions we should target I think. Healthy seasons from “the core” and we”lol be within striking range. What’s others thoughts?

TR did a mighty big disservice to this team for many years before 2011. Also never tearing it down after 2011. Like many said he held the franchise back by trying to field a competitive team every year when a full on rebuild was staring him in the face. Never made any moves to jump to one side or the other. Build a winner or rebuild. Instead he stood in the middle of the road and never committed to one side or the other in order to put as many fans in the seats as possible. He chose to keep feeding an alcoholic drinks in hopes he would quit instead of just sending him to rehab. There are many analogies to describe this but the fact is he kept doing the same thing hoping for different results every year. Anyone that could have been traded should have. No questions. Short term pain for long term gain. Who did that? Houston. Chicago. Who ironically have both won a World Series since then. Where are the Twins? Still wondering when they will make a legitimate playoff appearance and still wondering if next year is the year. That year should have been many ago now. There is no excuse. Why are we where we are. TR and his staff. I would also throw the pohlads in there for not having the balls to commit either.

It’s such a crapshoot and I believe quantity over quality in most regards. Just have to look within the division at the late 2000’s early 2010’s at the royals. Had top 5 picks every year. Numerous prospects every year. One maybe two would stick at the major league level out of 5 every year. That kept going. A good trade or two to supplement in house talent. You get 2-3 good years of having a shot. Then back to the cellar again. This is the model unless you are the top 5-10 markets. I think it’s a good model though. It’s not like the NBA where you get the same 2 teams every year competing for the championship for 10 years.

Why is this an article? Fact is you can never begin to explain how baseball or any other major sport for that matter works to the average fan. These people still think it’s 1991 or 1987 and star players play for a million dollars and take the hometown discount every time. I have family that have season tickets. Watch every game when not there. Go to Twinsfest every year. Have everything in the world signed by Joe Mauer and Kirby Pucket. I had to explain to them who Berrios and Buxton were. I try to explain prospects, and all the intricacies of how it works and watch their eyes glaze over. The same people who love Joe Mauer but don’t think he should have got the big contract. Not understanding that when he signed that contract that was the market for a star catcher in his prime. If not more.Yet they still expected him to stay in Minnesota forever yet only play for like a million a year. Impossible. Trying to cater to the average fan is like trying to explain capitalism to a socialist.

And this. This whole thread is why I come hear to read the interesting articles and rarely comment anymore. It has become just another place for “Joe Blow” to pretend he has any idea of what he is talking about because he read a book once. Read an article once. Did some minor thing in his life to where he can all of a sudden stand on top of the mountain and claim “I am right and you are wrong!” Why? Because I know how to follow what someone else thinks. I am right because I want to stand out and be important. You are wrong because you don’t think like I do. While the other guy says the same exact thing. And this goes on and on for 6 pages. Each person proclaiming to know more than the other. Fighting and clawing for every inch of moral high ground in a matter that has nothing to do with any of us. Just because you know her. Just because you know him. It doesn’t matter. I used to come here to read a good baseball article about a team I liked. Not loved. Liked. And maybe read a few comments to get some good insight into it. Just like everything whether it be social media or anything else. It’s gotta be all about who’s right and who’s wrong. You’re an idiot for this and that. Not only are we masters of baseball now but we’ve also jumped on the bandwagon of being master lawyers, master arbitrators, master detectives, master prosecutors, masters of everything under the sun. Why? Well, there’s someplace to write about it. I’m important right? I seen her once. We said hi. I seen him. I was there and watched him say something once. I know everything about them. I know everything about this situation. Why? Well I know them. I seen them on tv once. Or read her article. We’re basically friends. We hang out all the time. We were in the same building once. I believe her. Well I believe him. Oh ok. Did anybody here read the reports from the investigation? Was anybody here in the interviews? Did anybody here interview her? Did anybody here interview him? Was there anybody in here at the so called event that this supposed interaction took place? Anybody? Anything? No? Well, then that is speculation. It doesn’t serve any purpose in anything let alone baseball. Which is what we come here for. I used to think so anyways. This has just turned into another place where Mr. A can go argue against Mr. B about why you’re wrong as opposed to me being right. Why don’t we discuss politics on here? Or whose a better band? How about abortion? Right or wrong? Hmmm... why don’t we argue that for 16 pages worth of nonsense from people who know literally nothing about it. What else can we conjure up? Anything? Any other topics? The End.

He seems to have tremendous movement on his fastball and I think the old twins system in the minors does not mesh well with these young fire ballers. Hence the lack of strong pitcher development and the turnover this year from Falvine as far as the “system.” I also believe he still has not learned to pitch. Have always liked him and it seems he has the stuff. He just doesn’t know how to use it yet. I blame the system. He’s not the only one which seems to speak system rather than the player

Torii was pretty reckless as well. Lost a good spell after crashing into the wall in Boston I believe it was. I think he’s comparable to Torii. Extraordinary on defense for years before the bat came to play and grew into the leader/star of the early to mid 2000’s Twins. I think Buxton is on a very similar path. I don’t think Buxton bulks up as much as Hunter over his career and keeps more of the speed side. For example I don’t think he puts up the power numbers Torii did in his middle career but stays a more doubles speed guy and sticks in center longer. I’m betting over if his career stays on the same path. I’m not sold on his bat yet though. I think he’ll still have long spells of struggle until his approach and contact shore up but he’ll be the best center fielder as long as he’s out there. Great article!

Pass. I’ll take someone a bit younger who could possibly improve the team and contribute something other than age and wisdom.

I love this blueprint! Finally someone else on the Cole train!!! I don’t believe adding to the bottom of the rotation does any good other than strapping us to a 35 year old overpaid has been. We need to trade for someone to put at the top or near the top who’s not in decline 30’s mode. I was going with Gordon, Romero, Thorpe and Wade for Cole. Maybe add another wildcard piece. I keep Stewart. Romero seems like a liriano ready to breakdown after a stellar mlb debut. Love this blueprint though. This is one of 2 offseasons the Twins need to make real strides to keep the ball rolling forward.

I like the Frazier/Sano/Mauer 3 headed monster. I believe that makes more sense than simply finding a guy to hit dingers. Frazier brings that leadership ability as well which we need now. I like the relievers you suggest. Maybe our minor leaguers will finally start graduating to help that out as well. Jay would be huge as a shutdown lefty. As far as the starting rotation I believe we need to add to the top as opposed to the bottom. Can we rely on Santana to be our stopper anymore? Not likely and whatever he loses Berrios probably makes up for that so we’re about even. I believe a trade to get Gerrit Cole gives us a strong 3 man rotation at the top. Might cost a bit but if we rely on our minor leaguers to come up and take over we’re probably looking at 2016 again. We need a solid step forward. Hoping for 2017 to repeat leads us back to ‘15 into ‘16. Maybe not as drastic but not addressing SP properly may lose a year of this core.

Forget Archer. Gerrit Cole. Why is everyone so afraid of this guy? Plus I’d rather arm the pirates than an in league team.

Sometimes seems like some around here are living in the OOTP baseball world playing in commissioner mode. Cole, mccutchen for Andrew Vazquez. "Force Trade" haha

Unless we're adding cutch why trade either Rosario or Kepler if we can use our prospects? Rosario improved over the season and Kepler is solid and improving. I think we stick with Cole and ship the unproven prospects while keeping our young controllable Of's. If they want to give us Cutch then maybe take on his contract and throw in a low A/A+ wildcard. I got ragged on earlier so I'm going Cole for Gordon, Romero and Thorpe. We keep our young hitters. We still have some minors depth and a solid '17 draft core coming up and we get a solid pitcher who's got more upside and less questions than an expensive and old FA. I think that's fair all around. What do you guys think?