Shane Wahl

$100-200 million? I am not talking about Greinke or Hamels or Anibal Sanchez. I would say that this year's FA market other than the Buerhle deal was fairly reasonable. Dempster is not going to need more than 3 years. Marcum at 4/50 is likely the top end for him. Even getting two guys like that can be done for under $100, and that wasn't even what I was talking about doing! No need to exaggerate.

Probably correct about Bigley. I wonder--how far do we have to go back to find a Twins AA-to-MLB success story other than Joe Mauer?

Matt Carson probably shouldn't be skipped over. He has been consistent all year.

I doubt that Gleeman and those who actually assign such values believe it is arbitrary, especially with its connection to WAR. Anyway, your argument seems to be that no one could be worth more than the top paid player? Albert Pujols HAS been worth more than the highest paid player for years. Making the connection to actual existing contracts seems like the arbitrary part of this. Oh well.

That isn't an argument against it at all. If you actually point out how it is flawed in the calculation, that would be different. It's not like it has nothing to do with WAR or anything . . . .

Over the course of the entire season, yes. But no one was talking about that, were they? Going forward is what matters.

Precisely.

Span is not merely a CF, he is also the leadoff hitter. I am not sold on Ben Revere filling that role as of yet, and even if I were, that still merely moves him from position at the top of the order to another. And there is no clear indication that Aaron Hicks or Joe Benson are going to be ready to be Twins at the beginning or middle or even end of next season. "Trading Span does very little damage to the team's offense"--that's false. Rather blatantly false. The FA market is going to be pretty good this coming year. And it isn't like Edwin Jackson was going to break the bank (as an example from this year). Marcum, Dempster, etc. are not going to break the bank next year or the the next few. I would also look at trading for a still-in-arbitration-years guy if nothing else. Adding two good-very good pitchers for $20 million isn't impossible at all.

God. This thread makes me sick. Fangraphs is not the end-all, but people are just absolutely stupid about statistics and damn mathematics sometimes around here.

Yes. But the mindless drones ignore that.

What's your evidence for this claim?

The current offense is not average, at least not 1-7. What I think a lot of people are not realizing is that adding 1-2 top-line pitchers (say a 1 and a 3) this year wouldn't mean much more than 6 wins or so, but doing so with the potential rotation next year means 10-12 wins total. A full usage of Revere, Plouffe and figuring out another roster spot for an offensive contributor will mean 2-3 more wins. When you don't respond in full and just nit-pick, it just isn't going to work for me. I am not going to take you seriously. Also, trading Willingham and Span, given their contracts, in 2013 is going to bring back more than they are right now. So there's that (only assuming that two OFs out of Hicks, Benson, and Arcia are ready).

By midseason 2013 (at the earliest), I hope none of them are starting (unless Blackburn returns to pre 2010 form).

Why don't you actually respond to the full post instead of quoting one sentence?

Maybe not by themselves. But with one of the general population (here) beloved trade figures, maybe they add something. Clearly Guerra and Oliveros are not bad prospects. Or, with my view, the likes of Valencia, Guerra, and Oliveros together might mean they get one quality SP prospect who is going to be worth those three given Plouffe and the RP depth. I am just trying to think out of the Span and Willingham ridiculous box.

Haha. Some terrible science. The empirical cases against the medical staff seems pretty conclusive!

I think not. His BB/9 rate is barbarically bad.

Let me be clear, absent a trade (of Burton for a valuable SP) I would like the Twins to pursue the extremely unlikely closer by committee (of two) next year. But failing that: Should the Twins lock one or the other as closer and the other as setup guy and then deal the likes of Guerra, Robertson, Oliveros, and/or Burnett (by "and" I don't mean ALL of them)? I ask because the Twins have a bunch of guys who may be capable in middle relief, ranging from Swarzak and Blackburn (lot of money for that role, but if he can be effective there, why not try it out?) on one hand to Slama, Perdomo, Vasquez, Thielbar, Sattler, Waldrop, Pugh, Watts, and Albers on the other hand. This means taking what they know works and trading some guys who project as setup men or middle relievers given that there is depth in the system there.

Manship is now fully starting again at Rochester. I think he is exactly like Swarzak for the most part. Sam Deduno and Cole DeVries (though CD is comparable) are not as good as Manship. That's all.

Can peeps take a full, wholistic view of this!? Trading your MLB assets for MLB liabilities doesn't make the MLB team better. I am not one to throw the 2013 season away. Sorry. Hell, outside of the Baker injury and the complete failure of Nick Blackburn and Jason Marquis, this season wouldn't have been lost either. So, there are a few things to do. A: Not throw away this rather productive offense comprised of players all young enough to be relevant through at least 2014 (and Willingham-of-the-future haters need to recognize that 2011 and 2012 have meant significant increases in production . . . and his TF performance is very good . . . no DOMINANT). And Denard Span WITH Revere makes for a great 1-2 punch. Great. There are not that many teams who actually can produce 1-7 like this team can no. Why on earth would you sell some of that for AA pitching prospects? B: Sign two pitchers and spend the damn money. Justin Morneau is most likely not coming back after next season, or if he is, it will be for less money. Nick Blackburn's stupid contract is finally done after next season. The Twins can spend 25 million on pitching for 2013 and see a decrease in payroll in 2014! That is important. They could go back to 2011 payroll numbers in 2013 and basically back to 2012 payroll numbers in 2014. And certainly Willingham, Span and others could be traded either at the deadline next year or in the offseason. C: Trade Liriano or offer him the $12 million and hope that he declines so they get the picks. He will get the Twins something valuable in A+ at least in a trade. D: The misery of the Twins system with regard to SP prospects is seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. Gibson and Stuifbergen are back pitching. Bromberg is working it out. Hendriks is dominating AAA. Hopefully Wimmers is viable in 2013 at some point (any update?). Hermsen is another interesting possibilty. Rochester 2013 might have a starting rotation (of 6 candidates) at the beginning of the season of Hendriks, Gibson, Bromberg, Stuifbergen, Wimmers, and Hermsen (assuming some FA signings). That's vastly different than Walters, DeVries, and Deduno. E: There are plenty of at bats between RF, LF, 1B, C, and DH for Revere, Willingham, Morneau, Mauer, Doumit and X current prospect (Parmelee, Herrmann, Arcia, Benson, Hicks). F: Stop nay-saying. Good god.

Is there really any reason, if the Twins promote Evan Bigley to AAA, why Aaron Hicks, Chris Herrmann, Oswaldo Arcia, Chris Colabello, Joe Benson, and Deibinson Romero shouldn't be promoted as well? Are they really simply going to use AA as the testing ground? I know Plouffe is an odd case, but compare him to Chris Parmelee and to Ben Revere 2011. And one can just look at other players throughout baseball to see that most of them spent at least a few hundred plate appearances at AAA (aside from truly elite players). This is frustrating to me. What is going to be the status next year for these guys? Chris Parmeleed?

I want to point out that this Capps nonsense is pretty atrocious. The guy was hurting last year and yet the signed him again and lost picks and yada, yada, yada. That is atrocious general management and clearly atrocious medical work.

The rotation should probably be for the next few weeks: Francisco Liriano Scott Diamond P.J. Walters Nick Blackburn Jeff Manship/Cole DeVries

I agree! I am excited to see it. Comcast (at least in Indiana) has in On Demand. I was thinking it may be like Hoop Dreams (which may be the best documentary ever made).

Do people not realize that trading away your MLB assets to make up for MLB liabilities leaves the team right the hell where they were!