DocBauer

With what shapes up to be a better offense....close enough? Between these two teams, it could come down to how quickly and well the Twins re-shape their bullpen.

Not sure I follow you on Cederoth. I know he was a college draftee at high rookie level, and he's expected to do well, but it's still a transition from college to milb, being a professional, the travel, different cities, different coaches and teammates, etc, etc. His numbers were pretty impressive, and his stuff is pretty outstanding. When you say his debut didn't go "perfectly", could you elaborate? Are we talking consistency?

My best guess? The Twins want, and are best off with, May or Meyer earning the #5 spot in the rotation. Milone is #3 on their list. Pelfrey is a distant #4 and viable relief option. I believe one of Milone or Duensing is gone in a trade before the season starts. Possibly as part of a deal for a CF.

I fully expect May or Meyer in the rotation as the #5. Based on his time with the Twins late last season, and his general improvement as he got acclimated, I'd put May in the lead. Meyer could get his ML feet wet in the bullpen initially, though I could also see him pitching every day at Rochester in the beginning, to keep himself stretched out and on a regular turn. Vice versa with May potentially. Pelfrey is in the pen or simply gone. And I have doubts the team will, or needs to, keep both Duensing AND Milone. Not with Thielbar around, Darnell really close, and Thompson as a possible as well. In fact, I still think the Twins make a move for a CF, one of the LH's may be included. (Insert Duensing comment/joke here)

Let's not rewind the "shouldn't have re-signed him" tape ok. A raise of hands for anyone who really believes that Pelfrey, after the past two seasons and a new staff in place, is really any kind of strong contender for the final spot in the rotation. Secondly, I'm not going to pile on Milone for his lousy time with the Twins last season. It was a short tenure, thus SSS, and he was reportedly less than 100%. Now, if part of his injury was ego related from his AAA demotion by Oakland, then that's HIS issue. I think he looks sound if not solid, but he doesn't appear as anything special. And I don't believe the Twins will give him a leg up just because he's LH. May and Meyer were traded for for a reason. They are very talented. They are filled with potential and promise. And they are NOT OLD at 25 and just coming off their first seasons of AAA ball. They will get a serious shot. And there is room for both, rotation and bullpen, until opportunity comes knocking in some form.

This outstanding breakdown actually has me even more optimistic than I already was. Thank you Parker! I've done my own look-see in to Santana's career numbers and been surprised, pleasantly so, with what I've found. I've seen some poor years and some inconsistency...though all pitchers have these...but found he was more consistent than I realized, and that his overall numbers were actually better than I had realized. I was actually excited and all-in for a signing last season. He or Masterson were the guys I wanted this offseason if we were going to make a move. Santana's last 5 seasons are very solid overall, and seeing and reading this breakdown to explain improvements make me feel even better about the guy we are getting. I know there are defeatists out there, but if Hughes is what I believe he is, which is pretty much the pitcher he actually was in 2014, and will be again, with a little give and take here and there, Santana and a healthy Nolasco offer some fine stability behind him. If Gibson can avoid the sophomore jinx, and improve on his 2014 experience even a little, we really are set pretty nicely at 4 rotation spots to begin the season.

I think it's fairly easy to openly state 4 of 5 rotation spots...pending health or injury issues of course...are set for the Twins in 2015, at least to begin the season. Things can change as the season moves along in many ways. And this thread is not about discussing those set 4 options. And really, it's not necessarily about May or Meyer...or even Pelfrey...it's about Milone and who he is and where he fits in. What we do know is that he's a left handed, relatively soft tosser who will be 28 shortly before the 2015 season begins. He pitched in 5 games in 2011, so essentially, he has pitched in 3 ML seasons thus far in his brief career. In his 3 years, he has made 81 appearances with 78 GS, mostly with Oakland, 6 appearances and 5 GS with the Twins. It would be easy to look at Milone's solid 2012 season with the A's, see his 13-10 record, 31 GS, 3.74 ERA and 190 IP and think the A's might have found a bit of a mid/back end steal. It would also be easy to look at his not as good 2013 season, 12-9 record, 26 GS, 4.14 ERA and 156 IP, and wonder if the league was catching up to him, or if he was suffering a slight sophomore slump. Now, in fact, these numbers are VERY SOLID for a back end SP, but certainly a dip from 2012. But here's something interesting; his stats with Oakland in 2014 were actually better than the previous 2 seasons. He was 6-3 with the A's with a 3.55 ERA, with 96 IP, fewer hits than IP for the first time, and a better BA against and WHIP than the previous two seasons. And then go got demoted to AAA! It felt like the Twins got a decent steal...not a stud, but a nice pitcher...in the Fuld deal. Probably someone better than they should have expected. The problem is, the pitcher actually received...apparently body snatched by aliens...was nothing like the pitcher who performed for Oakland in '12, '13' and the first part of '14. Now, there did appear to be an injury factor. And there was a trade and a move to a new team and a new park. And there was probably a pretty sore spot on Milone's backside...err...ego...from the milb demotion despite pitching well. But it sure seemed like he wasn't the same player at all. Is Milone crafty enough, healthy, to win and deserve a spot in the rotation? Or are the younger and more talented May and Meyer deserving/destined to replace him/force him out? Besides, there is absolutely the "future" factor where you want to roll with someone who is part of the day after tomorrow, and not just tomorrow. Where does Milone fit? Is he a legit contender for a rotation spot, at least initially? Or is he a possibly really nice bullpen fit as a multi-role player?

Tempting to go after a high quality, proven reliever to strengthen and deepen the bullpen. But with Pelfrey an option, Fien, and several youngsters that appear ready for a real shot, and a couple possibly ready by mid-season, I would expect an inexpensive flyer or two trying to find another Burton-type. With one move like this made, I wouldn't be surprised to see one more. Other than that...OF. It would be almost reprehensible to enter 2015 without a single new option for that position! And it doesn't have to be a major signing or trade, not with Rosario and Buxton on the way...hopefully fast tracking. And if Bourjos isn't THE GUY, then someone similar, although I think he's the perfect option at this point. He shouldn't cost much, his real asset is defense, but there is still some offensive potential there, and he could be a quality 4th OF option as early as next season. Shopping list complete.

Agree with Seth, the statement was made last offseason with the signings of Hughes, Nolasco, (Pelfrey), Suzuki, Morales and the attempted signings of Santana and Garza. Based on that, based on comments/hints by Pohlad this past year, based on comments made by Ryan as the season ended, I was one to expect/predict at least some sort of spree this offseason. Though I admit Hunter blind-sided me a bit. Masterson and Santana were at the top of my actual wish-list, Santana maybe the safer choice of the two. (length of consistent track record) I know his numbers are actually pretty close to Nolasco, though better in most all categories by a bit,but he does rate better overall. His past 5 year numbers as an average: 32 GS/ 207.3 IP/ 195.2 hits/ .249 OPP BA/ 164 SO/ 64 BB/ 2.56-1 SO-BB ratio. I don't know, that's a pretty solid #2 guy to me.

For the love of Babe Ruth and all that is holy about baseball....NO. Honestly, other than experience, what would something like this accomplish? A so-so NL SP moving to the AL where he can be worse as a #4-5 SP when you have, not only a couple top prospects to pitch, but probably, in Milone and Pelfrey, if healthy, someone of equal value already on roster? Dare I use the "S" word? Stupid. See that.....I dared.

Agree with your sentiment, but not your numbers. The per year, in my opinion to help protect the Twins investment, should be more balanced evenly per year. If possible, I'd rather front load the deal, but not sure Santana and his agent would go for that. But your point is valid about a viable rotation for next season. Absolutely no-one can predict what their team, or individuals, will do for any upcoming season. But if Ryan did sign Santana, and make the extremely smart move of acquiring a CF option such as Bourjos, consider the following: Santana=SS (occasionally CF perhaps) Dozier=2B Mauer=1B Vargas=DH Hunter=OF (could swap he and Dozier) Arcia=OF Plouffe=3B Suzuki/Pino=C Bourjos=CF Rotation: Hughes Santana Gibson Nolasco May Swing: Meyer Pen: Perkins Fien Thielbar Duensing or Milone 2 others of various

To me, excluding the big contract "ace" pitchers on the open market, there were 3 classifications of available FA SP this year. 3=A number of injured/rehab/flyer types available that could be had cheap, might offer little to nothing, but offered some solid to big rewards, though many of them might not even be ready from day one. Anderson is one of those types, obviously, but there are many others. I'm not opposed to this option. 2=A number of veteran guys to fill in as a #4-5 option with experience, and potentially eat some innings. ABSOLUTELY NOT the way for the Twins to go. You have May and Meyer for these spots. They are the future, need opportunity, will probably, ultimately, provide as well of service if not better...and in Milone and Pelfrey...you even have a couple veteran fill in/temporary types. 1=Masterson, Santana and possibly/maybe Liriano as 2-3 guys capable of taking the ball and providing a legit #2 option for a team, at worse a very good #3. Now THIS the Twins, and most teams, could use. I would prefer Santana on a 3 year deal, and if we're talking a 4th, I'd prefer a club or vested option. But even if the Twins would go a full 4th season, we're talking his age 35 season, not 36-37-38 year like Lester and the Cubs, and for a lot less money. I believe Hughes is for real, for a lot of reasons, despite some potential regression/improvement swings here and there. Gibson was a rookie in every way last season except for a technicality of 2 IP in 2013. Building on the experience of his "rookie" season, with even a small amount of improvement and grater consistency, his 13 wins could easily be 15, his 179 IP 190-ish,etc. Santana COULD be the Twins 3rd best SP, but would probably be #2 with good reason. A healthy Nolasco very easily could be the #4 guy, and that would actually be a good thing! May gets to be the #5 guy and build on his strong finish last season while Meyer can begin the year in AAA or the bullpen initially. Most teams need at least 6 SP throughout the season at some point. As much as I love and believe in May and Meyer and want to see them, they are still rookies, still developing, and we have a real need in the rotation. Signing Santana, there is still no reason not to have room for all 6 of these guys on the team. Milone will be in the pen if not traded, and Pelfrey the same, if he's ever healthy enough to actually take the field on a regular basis. I'm in on Santana.

Just some rough information concerning Santana to consider: 2005: First season, solid, unspectacular, 12 wins, shows potential. 2006: 200 IP 16-8 record, solid but not outstanding peripherals, quality season 2007: Big bump in the road, 5.76ERA, WAY too many hits vs IP 2008: BIG year, 16 wins again, 3.49 ERA, 200+ IP and SO's. Solid over all first 4 seasons with his first, 1 lousy, and 2 anywhere from good to outstanding. But as we consider the Twins signing him potentially, and they were somewhat "in" last season so it's not a surprise, and Santana is just about to turn 32, what I'm most interested in is "what has he done lately". 2010: 17 wins, 3.92 ERA, over 200 IP, 169 SO's, another very good season. 2011: 11-12 record, but 3.38 ERA, 228 IP, 178 SO's, solid numbers everywhere 2012: Joins 2007 as his second bad season, losing record, ERA over 5, other periphe rals actually pretty solid overall, however. 2013: Nice rebound in KC despite 9-10 record, 3.24 ERA, 211 IP, 161 SO's. 2014: 14-10 record for the Braves, nice season, some numbers down from 2013. 2010-2014 recent five year stretch averages for Santana: 32 GS/ 207.3 IP/ 195.2 hits/ .249 OPP BA Avg/ 164 SO's/ 64 BB/ 2.56-1 SO/BB ratio. Were he signed for 4 years, it would be his age 32,33,34,35 years. How long can or will he maintain his past 5 year stretch is hard to say. Regression is certainly a possibility at some point. But with good health, it's also not unreasonable that he would maintain the same or similar numbers for the next 2-3 seasons.

Torii's comments mean little to nothing. He is what he is defensively, and he will play the best that he can, catch what he gets to, and hopefully cut off the rest and throw to the right base. Lack of speed is a reality, as is experience and knowledge. And besides, it's the manager and his team that decide on shifts and positioning.

I want to hear more about this space lint.

Sounds strange...never seen the kid play in person yet unfortunately...but just from reports like this, numbers posted, TD reports, scouting reports, yada, yada, yada....it's just always struck me that there is something special, indescribable, and just special in an absolute kind of way with this kid. As if there is simply no way to deny him. Don't know how much sense that makes.

I actually thought about Liriano for a bit when the season was ending. I thought about him a lot. And if Liriano wasn't Liriano, I'd be in great favor of signing Liriano. But Liriano IS Liriano, and we've been down this path with him before. The ChiSox tried to walk the Liriano path with Liriano and waved their hands petty quickly. For whatever reason, the Liriano the Pirates ended up with isn't our past Liriano. And if Liriano weren't Liriano, he is EXACTLY the type of pitcher we should be signing, LH, lightening occasionally harnessed, just over 30, perhaps just figuring stuff out at 30/31 and wouldn't be the first guy to do so. But Liriano IS our Liriano. So unless there is something more concrete that indicates a turnaround in Liriano and his new fortunes,(somewhat limited/inconsistent thought they may be) other than being in the NL or just finding the right time and place and team to be with, then I'm not interested in signing Liriano, even though Liriano, in theory, is exactly the type of SP we SHOULD be signing, because...well...he's Liriano.

[quote name="big dog" timestamp="1418043562" I say spend big or stay home. We have enough 3/4/5s to sort through. Could Ryan make a big trade move for a top of the rotation SP under 30 with team or contract control for several years, yes. Do I think he will, no. I believe Ryan, and I agree with this strategy, wants to hold on to all of his prospect cards for another year. It gives him a bigger deck to shuffle and deal from a year from now when so many of the youngsters will be up, or getting really close in some cases. It fills the roster better, and offers even greater trade value. Masterson...maybe Santana...THATS IT in my book....or move on to a flyer on Anderson, Billingsley, or another of several quality arms coming off injury that offer high reward and little risk. NO 4th or 5th starters floundering around in place of prospects.

Love to have Liriano back. Love to see him healthy, grown up, head on straight, throwing strikes, getting SO's, winning games and living up to at least some of the vast potential he has owned and flashed. But he is not only the ex-girlfriend, he's the bi-polar ex-girlfriend who quit taking her meds because she felt better. Liriano washed out in Chicago in one season, so it wasn't just the Twins. For whatever reason, the NL, right place at right time, the one pitching coach in all the world he'd listen to or that "got him", he's found some success. I have serious doubts his recent success would follow him back to Minnesota.

It is filled...but not yet full. It could be at some point early, mid or late if and when May and Meyer are both up and in and performing. And I want to see the kids as well. But the Twins are also a professional ML franchise that needs to win as well. To that end, assuming the obvious we're not making the big $20M per ace signing, they need to sign Masterson or Santana. Those two are quality #2-3 guys who can make a difference. NO #4-5 guys! If you're even thinking it...STOP and just play a youngster and grow with him. He'd probably do as well or better anyway. If not one of those two guys, and no backend stopgap speedbumps, there are a lot of post injury options that could be had on the cheap with some nice high-side potential.

If I had the time, I would rush to Franklin's website and look up how many different ways there are to say NO. It's one thing to look at a Masterson, someone who is 30-ish, has done it, can do it again, and someone who had an OK season late in their career when they doubled up on their Wheaties and Cheerios for a season and figure to be nothing better than a 5th SP on staff. We have guys already who can do that, be that, and can use the experience to become more than that. This is NOT the kind of veteran addition we need in any way, shape or form.

I'm not sure this was directed my way, but I'd like to take a shot at it nonetheless. First, I think any sort of Us vs Them is very much in attitude presentation. There is a difference in believing something, stating it, explaining it, and holding it to be self-true vs simply a bigotry filled diatribe without proper, educated or thoughtful foundation. But also, using the context of the Hunter and Berardino situation, I think it comes down to "surprise attacks". For instance...in regard to either gentleman in this case...if they had decided to sit down and do a comprehensive interview, or retrospective, then the topic at hand would be expected by both parties. However, if either of them had agreed to an interview concerning...let's just say the weather in the Twin Cities and how it affects the early season...and either one suddenly jumped on the political/social bandwagon of belief, then in either instance, you have an ambush situation with personal agenda.

OK...computer freaked out the first time I tried to respond. Let's try this again! (maybe it didn't like Hunter's use of language either) Great question my friend! Hunter has chosen to make commentary, or make said ads that I again have not seen, on his own, and at his choosing. Personal beliefs by myself or anyone else not withstanding, he's made them. I believe his response, crude as it may have been, was a response, as I mentioned, to the time and place of the conference/interview taking place. It was about his joining the Twins, and not about agenda. And while, yes, I suppose he could have taken the bait to hop onto a soapbox, I believe he felt the time and place simply didn't warrant him doing so. His "agenda" at the moment was joining the Twins, not making a political or social statement.

Gonsalves is at the top of my list, and I'd place Thorpe there as well. The Twins seemed painstakingly slow with Gonsalves last season, a bit less with Thorpe, but I think they truly believe they have something in these two. And by gosh and golly and any other g-word you want to use, they are determined to avoid injury or shocking confidence lost by too early promotion. And I get that. But either, or both, of these kids could make a jump this year. Top prospects are supposed to play well and get promoted, do well again, and eventually arrive. But when you examine how young some of the top prospects are in the system, it helps re-define that opinion. For example, in addition to Gonsalves and Thorpe, Stewart might also make a big jump this season, especially if he starts using that slider a bit more. I picked Kepler last season as one of my top picks to click. I was really surprised it didn't happen. But a solid finish and solid work in the AFL, I'm going with him again this season. I discount Polanco's error total last season simply because he is still in the minors, surrounded by other minor leaguers, and playing in milb stadiums on milb fields, did get better statisticly as the season wore on, and because, well, simply, most milb infielders, even good ones, go through some growing pains and make errors. I still think Goodrum is just too gifted for the light not to start coming on. And Christiansen is a personal favorite son I have my eye on, and feel really good about developing not as a star, but as a very useful and versatile player.

Honestly, not being a homer here, (pun sort of intended), I find Ryan's comments to be pretty forthright. The man's background is in scouting. While he might have blown a few here or there, and reached for a couple cheap options with hope that didn't work out, the guy is far from incompetent. His wins in trades and signings outweigh his losses. And that's not me, that's been the general consensus of the baseball world for years. Ryan has always been very respected. I think a few bad moves and a rebuilding team can throw perspective out the window at times. Watching, listening and following baseball most of my life, I feel I know at least a couple things. And one thing I know is that statistics are great, but they also lie at times. I think defensive metrics are OK, and can tell you a lot of things. But over the years, I've seen teams and players that ranked high in defensive rankings, but when compared to other teams and players I witnessed, simply weren't as skilled and productive. And I don't mean just flash. Flash only gets you so far. But there is a difference in teams/players with limited range who are sure and smart vs a team with more errors, for instance, but make big plays and save runs that another player/team simply couldn't make. That, of course, is the eye test Ryan speaks of. I'm not saying Hunter DOES pass the eye test. I simply didn't watch him last season beyond a few innings here and there. I just don't know. But I do find his comments and analysis interesting vs comments and metrics I read here and there. Is it possible Ryan and his scouts are actually right?