mikelink45

I know that the moderator wants to limit the discussion, but in fact, this thread really does represent the frustration of the fans and is a healthy outlet for that frustration.

I am back from guiding a hiking trip in Michigan where I got to watch the Detroit Tigers play a few games against the Cardinals - fun to see Gardenhire. As I watched their struggles to find the right Outfielders for the future I was interested in the various players that they put in and how each had different potentials and strengths. But it got me thinking about the Twins. For the last two years we have been led to think of the outfield as Rosario/Buxton/Kepler. But is it those three for the future? I know we have had LaMarre and Field out there during the year and they do not excite me. We have used Adrianza in the OF as well as Astudillo, and Taylor Motter. Logan Morrison was even in the OF for two games. And of course we have had Jake Cave and Robbie Grossman playing extensively in the OF. No minor leaguers were brought up this fall to get any MLB time in the OF but Wade seems like a candidate and eventually we will have more minor leaguers move up to challenge I hope. But what is the immediate future - the next two years? Who will be have out there when we turn the corner? Start with the Big Three Byron Buxton has had a lost year. He is 24 and has been with the team for parts of 4 years. His defense is out of this world, his slash line for the four years is 230/285/387 and we all know the drama that was 2018. 6.8 WAR Eddie Rosario seems to be the one who stepped up this year, leading the team in all the batting categories and playing a steady, if unspectacular OF. In his four years he has a slash line of 280/312/471. 8.6 WAR Max Kepler has not regressed, he has not progressed, he is not a star, is he a starter? His slash for the same four years is 235/314/421 and he has an accumulated WAR of 6.7. Before looking at other options - if I take the lazy route and just add and average these three players we would have an OF with a 248/303/408 slash and 1.8 WAR. Not good enough for a team that wants to be a champion. The two players on the team that look like our next OF candidates - Sorry Adrianza and Astudillo - are Grossman and Cave. Two players who elicit very different responses from TD fans. Robbie Grossman has been our number 4 OF for three years and has played in 331 games (DH and 1B included). His slash line for MN 262/365/397 which is actually a good line for a number 4 if we do not consider his OF range and defense. Jake Cave is our find of the year, after Motter and LaMarre and numerous other dumpster dives we were able to get Cave out of the Yankees and he has produced. 265/311/487 slash and 1.7 WAR for 76 games. He hustles and looks good but his fielding is not as good as some might claim. In the long run, when it comes to defense, Buxton has no worries. That is five players for starting and bench. Are they the right five and in the right order? The 40 man roster still has Zack Granite who had a lost year and Johnny Field. Granite earned 0.3 WAR in 93 ABs in 2017 and played better CF than all but Buxton. In 2018 he played in 68 games before ending his year with injury. He batted 211/282/245, He is 25 years old. Johnny Field has been in 13 games so far with a slash line of 071/100/171. If we look at his entire 2018 year he has 75 games and 193/231/330. I hope to not see him on the 40 next year. The next question is who is in the minors who might be up soon? MLB.com has a top 30 for each team - http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2018?list=min Our number two is Alex Kiriloff - how long before he comes up - will it be in the next two years? If he does Kepler better watch out because RF is his best position. Trever Larnach is in his first year, but already prospect #6. Too early to project him as a Twin. Akil Baddoo is #12 and so far has been a CF player. LaMonte Wade is #13 and seems the most ready for 2019. LaMonte Wade Age 24 has a minor league slash of 257/360/380 reminiscent of Grossman, but better in the field. He does not have power, but controls the plate. Alex Kiriloff is moving so fast he cannot be left out of the discussion for 2019 and definitely should be looked at for 2020. 348/392/578 is a slash line that cannot be ignored. Yes he is young, but you might notice that Atlanta and the Nationals both had players as young as him starting in their OFs this year. Akil Baddoo is 20, but could move fast and be a factor in 2020. 243/351/419. Trevor Larnach is 21, but is in his first year - 303/390/500 is an impressive start - 2020 is an outside possibility if the Twins are aggressive. Gilberto Celestino - just 19. He is our #14 prospect but should not be in this two year window. Gabriel Maciel is also just 19 and ranked #17. At least three years away. Luke Raley can play 1B or OF and is ranked #19. 275/350/471 He has the advantage of being someone the FO traded for - he is one of theirs and is considered a Grinder - Molitor will like that. Jacob Pearson is the last OF ranked in the top 30 Twins Prospects - He is age 20 with the Kernels this year and should be three years away. So that is the assortment we can work with in our system. Not counting more dumpster diving the following are Free Agent OFs for 2018. Bryce Harper - forget it Adam Jones - Not worth it Brett Gardner - he is already 35 Nick Markakis - he too is 35 Carlos Gonsalves - 33 coming from the light air of CO Michael Brantley - 32 - it would be nice to take him from Cleveland Steven Pearce - 36 - no thanks Lonnie Chisenhall - 30 - another Indian on the market Matt Joyce - 35. NO NO NO Curtis Granderson - 38, another old man, no thanks Carlos Gomez - 33, no we have already had him once Marwin Gonsalves - 30 - from Houston, interesting player. Cameron Maybin - 30 - nope Jon Jay - 34 - no interest Chris Young - 35, Angels, no Rajai Davis - 38 - another Cleveland OF - we could fill up with these guys, but no thanks Leonys Martin - 31, Guess which team - you Cleveland Gregor Blanco - 35 from SF. I say no to any over 32. Shane Robinson - 34 - Yankees Eric Young - 34 - Angels Brandon Barnes - 33- ANOTHER INDIAN! Jose Bautista - 38 - yes 38, no Austin Jackson 32 from the Mets Ben Revere - 31 - No retreads Some more with no resume, no interest on the list! Now comes the hard part - arrange them as you would like - this is the order I expect: 2019 Rosario Cave Kepler Buxton Grossman Raley 2020 Rosario Kiriloff Cave Buxton Raley Baddoo Where is Kepler, Wade...I expect trades. I would rather have Wade that Grossman in 2019, but I do not see the Twins making that move, I see him traded before being rostered. I am trying to guess at the Twins as much as looking at what I would like to see. Have at it.

I have written in a blog about SS that Polanco is a bad fielder, last night was another example. 12 errors in 61 games and it would be at least one more if they got the call right on his miss of Gimenez throw to second. He also had no hustle and cannot claim to be tired since he missed half the season. Nice bat, 2B is open Logan Forsythe is reducing his average after a nice quick start with the club and Polanco should slide over here. SS is too valuable for him to be our starter. Busenitz is really disappointing, the opener idea is a farce, Gonsalves has disappointed. Magill is not the answer. Play Astudillo to entertain the fans. Jake Cave is the one who is really standing out right now. He continues to hustle and that is fun to watch. Is Buxton watching?

I like the essay, but it raises many questions for me. Leadership is a real thing, but we hire a manager and 9 coaches to lead, we have Kelly, Morneau, Hunter, Hawkins, Cuddyer, and Kaat to provide insight and leadership. http://m.twins.mlb.com/min/roster/coaches/ And the FO also has Oliva, Morris, Blyleven, Hrbek, and Carew listed as special assistants. https://www.mlb.com/twins/team/front-office We have had Mauer, Dozier, Wilson in addition to our to leadership specialists to provide veteran insights. I keep thinking of the "Swinging A's. The only non-Yankee team to win three WS in a row and five division championships. "The Swingin’ A’s did it despite a clubhouse chemistry that could require a hazmat suit. Hours before Game 1 of the ’74 World Series, for example, players kept insisting to reporters that tales of their infighting were greatly exaggerated. Then Fingers and Odom started brawling right there in the clubhouse. Fingers required six stitches in his head. Odom wound up with a sprained ankle." https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/05/30/oakland-athletics-were-perfect-misfits-in-the-early-1970s/ Leadership is great, but Belisle and Gimenez have been with us with our strange success last year and our back to the pack record this year - the team is 152 - 156 with their leadership and Gimenez has given us 0.6 WAR for the time with the Twins and Belisle -0.8 WAR. Gimenez 218/345/391 and Belisle 3 - 3 5.67 in 81 innings in 83 game with an ERA+ of 78. Imagine their leadership potential if they were any good. Right now I give Jake Cave the badge for leadership because of his hustle, his work ethic and results or even Astudillo for his positive energy, hustle, and smile. Of course I can see the Twins adding another two coaches - we will call them Leadership coaches!

I would love to have some team blow up the current concept - go with Whitey Ball - the old Cards, or the A's of Rickey and Reggie, or the Go - Go White Sox of Aparicio and Fox. Get on base, hit 'em where they ain't, steal, hit and run, field, and play fast ball. It might just put some of these follow the trend teams in shock!

My solution which will not be popular with anyone is to start the six year clock after two years of service to the team - minor league and major league. I do not care how old they were when they signed - do they have different rules for high schoolers going in to the NBA? Sign them, develop them, get them in MLB as quick as possible. There will be other adjustments and I do not want to spend pages talking about career minor leaguers (although they would benefit from this) of slow developing players - contracts can adjust for this. But right now it is a joke and our FO is the one that spoke up and pulled the cover off the travesty.

The FO continues to baffle me. Why not Reed - was it so important that Belisle continue to have innings?? The promotions and development of minor league arms continues to be a questionable attribute of the Twins. Anderson should have been up too. I would have brought all of these up! Get young arms in the BP and let them develop.

I continue to be frustrated with this front office and when I look at yesterday's lineup with Petit and field and a number of other players we do not want to have when was once we challenge for a playoff. Development and transition of minor Leaguers into major league players is not adequate and any measure. September supposed to be a month where we see the future and considering that idea this isn't a good future I'm not happy at all with how the September call UPS have been used and who they are. I believe these front office leaders have a long way to go to get belisle off the resume.

Nice summary. I know it must get harder and harder as the season winds down. The storylines are limited and we can complain about belisle only so much because the explanation for him being here it's just out of the Twilight Zone. Why field played in Buxton didn't will stay with us for a long time. It appears that our brief and colossal failure at openers is gone for now goodbye I won't miss you.Astudillo has been our one really fun end-of-the-season treat and if the twins front office has the brains that so many of you claim they do they would recognize that he is an asset to keep fans interested and perhaps buying tickets.

This is our Minnesota nice essay. It is possible to rebuild a team or one or two years and they're free agents are there in season pickups their inability to promote and move the minor Leaguers and the total lack of commitment to winning baseball does not make them The Wiz Kids they're supposed to be. It's time for them to prove themselves and for the rest of us to start analyzing and criticizing them for what they were hired to do and the way they were given to put together the support and flexibility team has provided them

Is a Minnesota nice article this one ranks high. Good drafts guys what as far as the team on the field poor signings belisle motter Gimenez LaMotte Plus Morrison and Duke and Lynn. Inability to drop and promote players to fill our needs. I'm really tired of hearing about these young Wiz Kids and all they're going to do for Twins baseball. Teams to rise in one or two years. It's time for them to earn our praise the honeymoon is over.

I can't make a definitive statement related to willians, but I can thank him for breathing some life into a moribund finish for the twins this season. He has so much energy and enthusiasm and if there's one thing this team has lacked its energy and enthusiasm. Our primary Vet as quiet and understated and we don't have anybody else to give that energy the way that Kirby Puckett did. That quality is really underestimated. I'm reading Yogi Berra's Memoir on his 10 Championship seasons and he talks in there in about some of the Players whose enthusiasm spark the Yankees. Billy Martin was one of them and of course we know about him here in Minnesota but his energy drove the team. And in addition to him there are others often players who were role players who stepped up like that to keep the team focused.

We've gotten to a point in the season where The Only Thing Worth cheering about and looking forward to just to see what the other team is going to accomplish. Nice to Berrios do well that was a positive but boy has Duffy fallen. it's been really hard to see anything positive is a sign for the future in any of his call UPS this year. I know he was upset with it twins for sending them down but he's given them nothing to work with and no promise for the future I hope he moves on to another team world is a different chance a different coaching system

A man who loses half of the year because he makes a bad choice with peds does not have the luxury to check out no matter what his teammates do

It's really hard to add any comment that means anything when we're playing the Royals other than the fact that are rookie starter and rookie reliever really have looked out of place against Major League teams even the worst major league. having Rosario back makes our lineup look a little bit more Major League too.

I love all the comments and interactions. I have to post this on each of my blog. I'm currently guiding a trip in Michigan in the u p and it does not allow me to comment on your individual postings but I really appreciate all the thoughts

I am currently guiding a trip in Michigan and pictured rocks and Sleeping Bear Dunes. Unfortunately all I have is my phone and it does not allow me to comment on your individual postings. But I really enjoy all the comments and thoughts

Great article if we were the Braves Nationals or Cardinals he would be up in 2019. So I hope they make the right choice get them to double-a the beginning of next year and if he takes off like like it looks like he could be up halfway through next year.

I agree with you. I am trying to look at this position along with the other infield question marks because I am not seeing any plans for the future and the comments I keep reading make him 50/50. Since the other options are so poor I would keep him for his glove alone.

I am sorry the Twins are doing so well that they could not have this group all audition in September, but with Belisle eating up all the Relief Innings what could they have done? Sorry, I think I am starting to get bitter.

Imagine - Sano and Austin together each striking out nearly 40% - great for the pitcher statistics, but not acceptable in my ideal line up. I like to see us score without the HR. Belisle is now so well entrenched in Twins history that his story will be told generations from now over a strong shot or two. It is just unbelievable, to me, that the FO and Mgr keep putting him out or that he doesn't just shut it down. Can't we have one of those magic injuries that put him on the shelf? Five losses in a row - 76 losses total. If they can play 500 the rest of the way they can avoid 90 losses, is that important? We got to see Petit, Grossman, Field, and Gimenez yesterday - does that help the team? At least Astudillo is entertaining. Odorizzi is sure to carry over to next year - does that excite anyone? I laughed when they asked if he could be the opener in the future. Of course he said no, but in essence if he were pulled when he should be he is already an opener. Curtiss no longer looks like he is going to be an MLB arm. Something happens when he comes into the bigs. What is it? I do not want SSS as the answer, In his career he has been in 12 games and has an ERA over 10. Mental or physical?

I have been a critic for this FO for a long time. They will become good when they stop thinking that they only have to have statistics and not watch the game. September for a team as poor as this should have seen a flood of young players getting a taste of the bigs, getting rid of the first time jitters, developing a taste for the big time. But we waste it on players who are never going to star, who have already had time and opportunity. I am not against them getting time towards their retirement, but bring them up and leave them on the bench. But give some new players a reward! This isn't even about Buxton, but rather a culture of reward and promise. Tonight's game is about to start in less than an hour and already I question why do we have Odorizzi starting. We know him, get some new looks. Grossman is batting third! Adrianza is at third. I think I read we have an outstanding minor leagues prospect list - where are they? Field is in the OF - why? Even minor leaguers who are not expected to be great should be getting an end of the season chance. I look at this lineup and I have to think if I was an Astro I would be having a good laugh.

Because someone sure loves him on this FO/Mgmt team.

Okay, we know Joe is on first, but we do not know if Joe wants to stay there or go home and be a dad. Actually we do not know how Mrs Joe feels about this. Joe is the perfect compliment to our existing infield, not because he hits well, he and Robbie Grossman are the walk guys if you like that for your batters. But right now it is Joe's glove that is saving this rather mediocre group of fielders. First base is a nice place for Austin or Sano or Grossman, but we do not have the greatest fielders and they can use the security of a really good fielding first baseman. Ask the pitchers what they think. So Joe can play the I am not sure card and the FO can say we traded for Austin and Cave and have Sano and others ready for 1B and all can provide the tradition 1B power. Have fun with the negotiations - Joe is not coming back cheap. So who wins? Fielding and nostalgia or power and youth? I am not sure. This is the list of possible 1B for 2019 - how would you arrange them? Joe Mauer Tyler Austin Miguel Sano Robbie Grossman Jake Cave Brent Rooker Or do you sign a FA and set back all the young guys? The infield is not as strong as the outfield, the answers are much more complicated - defense versus batting.

I think we are all in this conundrum. For years we have looked forward to this graduating class and now they have been here for three years and the performance is not there. Do we keep hoping? Can all of them step up? The Twins fans are in a difficult place.