I think Germany is a pretty unique case and considerably different than our current issue in the Middle East. Japan as well. My only point in bringing them up was that it took full scale war to unseat those radical forces driving the culture and the government. I think, sometimes, it has to be considered that the maniacs have to die before you can rebuild something good. The issue in the Middle East is finding the maniacs. Islam as a whole has suffered without a second enlightenment period since the Christians annihilated the first. So it's tough to tell which adherents to it can be part of a more secular, modern world. Our policy, many times over, has hurt this as well. I completely agree with you on that. It's why I tend to favor the "let's just stay the hell out of it" tactic. It seems hopeless and largely bound to failure if we intervene. But we also can't pretend that choice doesn't come with some serious consequences. We're still talking about places that hurl homosexuals off buildings. Behead people in front of children to mold them into killers. Use innocents as shields for terrorism. And warp religion to stir a fervor that is hard to match. Doing nothing allows those forces to potentially gain control at the expense of the slaughter of those that would seek to change the region in a more acceptable way. It's why I said what I did earlier - I don't think there is a "good" solution.