TheLeviathan

True, but a competent defense might make our horrible pitching at least look "bad" rather than "I think I'll watch paint dry instead".

Sure, Tonkin may not be the top of the list, but in order to look at the larger issues/patterns we need to identify the data points that are creating the trend. Tonkin or even Sano, in and of themselves, might just be mistakes, but when all those mistakes are taken as a whole then we can start to formulate opinions about the larger causes. Will we ever know with 100% certainty what the inner workings were? No, but if we're waiting on that kind of certainty we might as well shut this puppy down. Hell, even on what you assert as a fact we can all agree on (the pitching) I could make a pretty valid argument that we can't really judge our pitching all that clearly given the defense we've put behind them this year. Or, at the very least, they are only part of the problem but are receiving full blame. But parsing out those differences and arguing our case one way or the other is what the message board is for. Including developing theories and opinions about what is going on that is leading to so many mistakes.

Um, Nick provided data in his original post. Where's yours? No, you don't have to list every player, but when you're going to cite Michael Cuddyer from almost a decade ago, perhaps you should consider what that says about the strength of your argument.

It looks to me like facts are being used to support opinions. You disagree with one fraction of the opinion (Tonkin) and have chosen to die on that sword here. I'd argue the person you're really talking to about glazing over the forest for the trees is yourself. No one on a message board filled with opinions is going to be able to post anything that will reach universal agreement. There will always be those that feel there were "unnecessary attacks" somewhere in the post. You don't like the point on Tonkin. Ok, state your case with facts that counter the point. I don't think I've seen you do that.

Believe what exactly? If you want to plant your flag in the "Dammit, Tonkin is just plain bad"...fine. Care to explain the other, much bigger bone-headed decisions?

Nick made the argument about pitch total. He's not wrong. And your list is a good way of showing how the exceptions prove the rule. Not to mention your point does nothing to explain away how bad the Twins attempts have been for the last few years.

Which puzzling corollaries would those be? He was made the long man and kept there regardless of performance in that role or past success in various roles. (Granted, in the minors, but that's what he had been groomed to do for many years) Maybe he would've been terrible in more of a one inning role....but how the hell are we going to know when we burned him out throwing more pitches than he was used to in mop up duty?

It's not that Tonkin earned some more prominent role, it's that you thrust him into a role he had never done, that didn't suit his skills, and expected him to succeed at it. You know, like we did with CF the last 6 years. And Sano. And the (what seems like) dozens of infielders we've thrown in the outfield. Oh, and Trevor May. Mayhap I'm missing some more? This team seems to think the failures are the result of something other than their own decision making. They have continued to play guys in ways that don't suit their strengths and marveled that things fell apart.

You're right, there is a lot of hypocrisy on those issues. People would be well served to consider their opinions more carefully because I agree that there are a lot of posters that talk out of both sides of their mouth on things like this. It's an issue I try to comment on very rarely myself. My motto, and i've said it before a few times, is do what's right for the kid. I don't know all the ins and outs of that for each kid so I try not to comment directly on any one action. I will comment on overall trends and things that seem out of place, but there are too many things we don't know because we're not directly working with the players ourselves to go too far expressing those opinions. At the same time, given the magnitude and frequency of the blunders the last few years....is there really surprise at the bitterness? I mean, we finally get a glimpse of a real star talent in Sano and it seems like the organization has done everything short of deliberately physically injuring him to derail a promising start to a career. On the larger scale things are a total mess. Hell, not only is there a bad plan, but there was effusive praise and confidence from the organization that everything was fine and things are rock solid as we were steering directly into an iceberg. Terry Ryan is a nice guy, but every time i heard him say something that sounded like "There are plenty of life rafts" or "We saw that iceberg coming a mile away, no worries!" only made me more bitter. When people care they will feel hurt, betrayed, angry, and bitter. What you really need to watch out for is people not caring. A point Nick deliberately made in his post and is spot on: people are starting to largely not care. I'll take pages and pages of criticism imploring change every day and twice on Sunday because i know those people at least care and they want the rest of the populace to care with them.

Man I hate these faux positive vs. negative discussions. Most of the time they are rooted in someone's own preferences and perceptions and rarely in fact. Are there some here that rip and piss and moan constantly with no redeemable posting traits? Yes, I largely ignore them. Are there some here that do nothing but paint every mistake as a positive and put the team and it's decision makers on undeserved pedestals? Yes, I largely ignore them too. The vast majority of us, and Nick is definitely included, post criticism and praise we feel warranted. And most of us argue/defend those stances fairly. I've disagreed many times with Nick (hell, this whole offseason pretty much) but at no point did I feel his optimism should change because it didn't jive with me. He's entitled to his stance, so long as he is prepared to defend it honestly and fairly. And he does. If I felt at any point this site was intentionally posting fluff and other nonsense in some misguided effort to have a "balance" of positivity and negativity I'd bail in a heartbeat. I want to read honest, thoughtful opinions. When we're 30 some games under 500, I expect most of those opinions to be critical. They should be. If they weren't, I'd start to question the honesty and integrity of the person giving the opinion. This team has earned criticism. I'm hoping this offseason they start finding a way to earn some praise. I'll be watching, listening, and reading everything on this board and I hope the opinions continue to be espoused based on the merit of the opinion, not some token effort to appease the audience.

So, Aaron Hicks still the stud some of you thought? No?

I think they've done perfectly fine with Garver. And that's good, because I like to think this team could find a way to order at Chick-fil-a and wind up with a 5 day old Big Mac at this point.

If nothing else, there were times this seemed like it was laughable to imagine happening. So good for him.

I know where we can find one! In the bullpen. Where we demoted him in the name of Mike freaking Pelfrey. Maybe the damage is already too heavy, but for god's sake try.

Playing elite defense at 1B doesn't enamor me enough to wedge a 33 year old into that position come hell or high water. I don't want him benched either, but for god's sake let's un-entrench him from playing every day.

If the Twins marched out Vargas at 1B and Sano at DH the rest of the season I'd hold up bunny ears for reception to tune in. Mauer does nothing for me. I've seen his schtick. I know it has no upside for this team's next hopeful window of contention. Seeing him reminds me of nothing but continued failures and misplaced sentiments. That's unfair to Mauer, he's fine, but nevertheless he continues to be an obstacle rather than an asset.

None of us know what will become of Vargas, but I can guarantee this: if we play him every fourth day in favor of Mauer we are willingly sacrificing the opportunity and chance at helping the future each and every time we do it. We can play him and find we have a gem or a dud or we can not play him and never know. The kid needs to be in the lineup every freaking day of September.

Good lord, why is there even a consideration of keeping Plouffe? Undo that mistake as quickly as possible. Give Sano some run at 3B next year and Vargas at DH before we make a decision on either. And get Plouffe the hell out of the way of that.

You keep arguing "let the new regime work with him" - yes? How old will he be, at the absolute soonest, when such fruits would bear? Right. So 27. And that's if you're on some kind of really powerful stuff and think it's going to do a complete 180 in the next calendar year. I don't care what level he was at several years ago, his track record is one littered with "meh" results and lots of injuries. He's a 27 year old. He hasn't even demonstrated the ability to master AAA. Or master the ability to pitch an entire season. I'm not looking at him with frustration. I'm looking at him with resignation and acceptance.

I'm letting the reality of him being 27, with an ok career minor league track record, and a history of shoulder issues color my opinion. I hope he makes a good teacher. Seems like that was something he was passionate about.

Well, it might be less meaningful. It seems to me that it would for a few reasons that Dozier is good evidence for: 1) When you're absolutely awesome for stretches, the team starts to rely on you to be that. They build the lineup around you for that. They bat you in certain positions for that. So when you suck horribly for long stretches it has an amplified effect. 2) Dozier binging for a few weeks may be enough to win you a couple games you wouldn't win otherwise, but how much of that binge goes wasted in lopsided efforts? Compared to weeks and weeks of being a blackhole hurting the offense? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Maybe reality is counter to what I assume it would be. I'd love to see that. As a general rule, I'd rather have guys that can keep their bad streaks to short periods of time and keep their production regular as opposed to long binges of either terrible or productive play. I just think it gives you a better day-in day-out advantage.

That's a fair argument, there may be some salesmanship necessary in this trade. It may even be something that forces you to walk away from trade talks - teams try to lowball you because of his erratic production. I only sell if I can sell high, but I'm damn sure shopping to see if it's out there.

That's a fair point, I just think given his age this is less likely than my scenario. But worth pointing out. It's hard to really peg Dozier with any kind of trend, which for me is part of the problem. I don't know what to count on him for.

Yeah and I've held on tight to the hope that he'd eventually pan out, but this just not the kind of guy that I'd target from another organization. He's too old and there isn't enough track record of success. Plus the medical issues. Meyer hasn't even played well enough to be called a AAAA player.

2014 was two seasons ago. He's yet to do anything but stink in AAA and this is his third year. He's 27. At some point throwing a fastball hard is not enough.