TheLeviathan

Count me glad that, in that specific case, we didn't listen to Twins Daily. We need to remember, being a "big" move doesn't mean the same as being a "good" move. Put me in the camp of wanting more smart moves, whatever those may be. Jepsen? Not smart. Tulo? Not smart. "Insert stupid extension given here"? Not smart. We've been way too far on the "not smart" side of things for too long.

Great article Nick. The real problem here is that Ryan bristles at the notion of spending 15M on the open market but he's willing to deal a solid prospect (and money! What did we end up giving Jepsen for 1.5 seasons? 7-8 million? It's not like Jepsen didn't end up costing money too) to get a reliever. Is there anyone here that wouldn't give up 6 million dollars for Hu? No? Because that's exactly what we did, we decided we'd rather give up Hu to save a handful of millions. That's just so fundamentally flawed as a strategy.

It's been fun playing Texas, I'd like to see the positives continue a bit longer before we buy in too much, but it's been a nice small sample. Grossman, Rosario, Buxton, and Kepler is a nice foursome but we really need Buxton to take the next step. Vargas has looked legit since coming back, his approach at the plate has been wonderful to see. He looks like a totally different guy up there. (Other than, along with Sano, looking more like a WWE tag team than baseball players) I'd really like to see Polanco get some playing time the rest of the season. Fit him in somehow.

I think it all boils down to the offers. With or without them going forward isn't that important, shop them and maximize their value. Whatever that is.

We all agree - don't move Dozier and Santana for anything less than good value. The problem is why you make that decision. Max Kepler looking like a stud should have absolutely no bearing on your trade talks about Santana. If you're shopping him, you're doing it to add value to the team in a trade. Ditto Dozier. Whether the Twins go .500 or .300 or .700 the rest of the way shouldn't impact the vision going forward. These guys are good players with the potential to contribute value to this team in a trade. They shouldn't be dealt unless the return matches that. Just letting your W/L record dictate your decisions is a large part of what I think happened last offseason. We have to keep perspective.

Guess it depends if the Twins see Polanco as a SS. It's hard to say with how Nunez has played this year and with Dozier coming back to life. They need to decide on Polanco, trade him, or make a spot for him. Ideally soon.

Here's what doesn't make sense: if you're just going to advocate dealing them in November anyway, the argument "don't write off 2017" doesn't really make sense. If you don't intend to retain them, then the only argument is about trade value not what you expect the season next year to bring. So, yeah, no one is arguing give them away. We all agree to get value, but our plans for 2017 are pretty irrelevant if that's the argument. And yes, things could go crazy and go right, but is that how you'd recommend we operate running the team for sustained success? Reaching for low-odds statistical anomalies as a basis for action? This season woke us up to some serious issues with the 25 and 40 man roster. We're further away than we thought and that's ok. It happens. But it's going to take time for that to get cleaned up. We also have young players we need to ease into the big leagues without expecting them to be MVPs or all-stars. We need next year for them to establish themselves without any other pressure than to refine their game. That isn't "writing off" the season, but we have to keep perspective.

Sorry, but if you're going to call me out for cutting off part of your post, I'm going to call that part of your post what it is. That isn't uncivil, you tried to paint my response unfairly. I took your central theme and argued that, some irrelevant disclaimer doesn't matter to me and shouldn't matter in your response.

Yes, I wrote off your disclaimer because I took the central point you were making "don't write off 2017 contention" and addressed that and not some bogus small print, cover-your-butt junk at the end. Is anyone arguing we give them away like some sort of gift basket? If not, then let's get rid of that. Strawman defeated, moving on. Trading them in the offseason, versus July 31st, doesn't seem any more or less "writing off 2017". They are basically the same act. The only differences I can see are 1) Opening up playing time the rest of 2016 and 2) possible trade market differences, but that, at best, is speculative. If the Twins went .500 the rest of the way they'd match the 2012 Red Sox who went on to have the most historic one year turn around in baseball history in 2013. (69-93 to 97-63) Meaning, you are deciding not to "write off" 2017 for the odds of something happening that is the statistical outlier (by FAR) in MLB history. Yes, we need to write off any serious thoughts of contention in 2017 and right the roster around the kids. We need to make sure they have all the playing time they need to establish themselves and build around that with pieces that will be here for 3-4 years from now or only temporarily as trade fodder. So, no, don't "give away" Santana or Dozier but if you get a competitive offer - take it. Look forward clearly and not with delusion about the shape this roster is in. Some better play in the second half doesn't fix everything, 2017 is still going to be about getting things in the right direction. Not being turned there and ready to go.

This should really change nothing. Those players playing well shouldn't impact our decisions on other guys. If some of these assets - Dozier, Santana, Abad, whomever - are peaking in value now, trade them. Don't give them away, but take value where you can get it. The fact that the core is playing well sets us up eventually, but we're still talking about a team with a lot of holes that would stand to benefit from 2017 being a year guys continue to audition and establish themselves. The kind of thinking you posted is exactly what lead to the first half disaster this year. You're losing the forest for the trees.

Maybe I missed this upthread, apologies if so, but where do you think Blake Swihart's stock is at in Boston? They need pitching and perhaps they've soured on him enough? I know he needs work on his defensive game, but might be an interesting target.

Well, I hope that's a possibility. He's got legit power, it'd be nice if he could be a contributor.

Target a catcher, but I'm with Willihammer - this could be a seller's market, be active. Nothing has to be forced, but all options on the table.

The over/under is three? Feeling optimistic eh? I'd have said 0.5. I'm leaning under, but the optimist in me wants to believe the over just barely squeaks by.

I don't think it's as easy as saying "my version isn't much better" because every small ripple of difference could have had a huge effect. Just the Plouffe/Park/Sano decision had a HUGE change on this team. A few changes here and there and maybe we're just bad and not historically awful. The "What If" game is just impossible to say. What matters is what RB was getting at - we KNOW the decisions were bad regardless of how bad the outcome was. Many of us were crowing about it before the results were in. It's time to go, there are some young guys starting to show some good signs. Build on that next year with fresh eyes.

Cost isn't the only factor, Target Field is friendly to craft beer lovers, hipsters, and 20-25 year olds. It isn't a place particularly friendly for a family. Only on Sundays would I even consider bringing my family the last few years and even then my attendance dwindled out from being a former season ticket holder, to a once a year family tradition, to several years we just haven't gone at all.

I totally agree, I haven't watched a Twins game in months thanks to the price they charge for out of market viewing. And I would pay if the prices were even remotely reasonable. But I've stopped going to baseball games and paying for a product that prices itself out of the average fan's market. I'll pay for other sports that I'd rather invest in.

Sadly, baseball decided long ago that the almighty dollar mattered more than exposure of their product.

Yeah, it's funny how.....miracle of miracles!.....when you put a 22 year old in his best position to succeed he suddenly starts, I don't know, succeeding! This issue has been the fundamental issue with player development. Yeah, players are struggling...but the front office's approach to how they use them has been a huge element in that.

Also, young players frequently take time to adjust. So many posters here set such ridiculous expectations for guys it's coloring the analysis of the results. If you're going to trust young players to develop that requires coaching, trust, and determination to put them in positions to succeed above all else. This team has routinely ignored all three of those tenants with these kids. It's happening to Polanco. Happened to Arcia. CF the last half a decade. I could go on.

I think Miguel deserves as much blame for his under-perfomance as some here for over-inflating expectations by calling him the 2016 league MVP. Meaning, a little, but far from the biggest issue. Young players need adjustment time, it's not his "fault" he's experiencing the same thing. The team compounded the season he was most likely to need support by putting him in an awful position. That's the biggest issue.

They've certainly had bad luck. Everyone does. They put their team in a position to fail with a series of choices that have overlooked one core belief that I thought this team held - play good defense. They have ignored that aspect time and again since Ryan returned.

At least we got RF figured out!

There are so many systemic roster issues it'll take a season just to clean that up and let the dust settle. Hopefully we have an entirely new group of people running the show for that.

It's crazy to think we may not see Hughes or Perkins throw until 2018, if they do at all for the Twins ever again. Hope he can at least leg out a few more years and his arm gets healthy enough for his career and the rest of his life.