TheLeviathan

The rule is mostly already in the books too! Just need some tweaks and enforcement!

Best DUI cover ever! (Can't help it, first thing that came to mind. Hope Ev is ok!)

It shouldn't have taken this many requests to get an actual argument with evidence presented. I'll admit, I didn't remember that Gonsalves was that high in 2018, so I definitely erred by how I undersold him. However, the two biggest problems with your argument aren't the ones you apologized for: 1) You're making the argument that it wasn't "Barren" - who said it was barren? Gunnathor referred to it as a "nice" array of talent. I think the counter argument, which has been done almost exclusively with evidence has been, "No...not nice. Quite below average". Even is Gonsalves was the next greatest pitcher in baseball, I'm still not sure that would qualify the Twins farm at the time as "nice". Especially when you consider how bad they were in 2016 and 2017 and the overhaul done to the pitching staff by the time they were not bad in 2019 and 2020. One player might defeat (in a strictly literal sense) the idea it was barren, but no one is arguing that so it doesn't really matter. It's the sum total of what was available. And, again, it wasn't good. Which leads me to.... 2) The guy you cited as evidence the cupboards weren't barren is not good at baseball. He's a total flop. Sure, we have the benefit of hindsight now, but it's become abundantly clear that the guys in the farm at the time were mostly not good players. I mean, gunnathor cited Tyler Jay in his list. Tyler Jay!!!!! You're making the opposite case of what you mean to: If Gonsalves is proof, by virtue of having a spot on a top 100 list, that the farm was good and he was our best prospect....isn't that a massive indictment? Our best prospect in the minors was a dud and almost everyone else turned out duds too. How can that possibly qualify as a "nice" group of talents?

No, we're on track. We're talking pitching. With evidence. You keep taking us off evidence and just throwing conversational hot takes out. As a-wan notes....Gonsalves was our best non-Berrios pitcher in 2017. He might not crack the top 10 of our current crop. Definitely not top 5. You argue that the prospect rankings dropped after some hitting promotions and Berrios. Well, that means the total farm (INCLUDING HITTERS!!!) was middling. And the hitters were carrying most of that ranking! Hence, by simple logic.....the pitching prospects must not have been very good relative to the rest of the league. But, for about the fourth time, maybe you'll actually present some non-folksy arguments or evidence for us to chew on. So....Do you have any that counters the reams of evidence posted by Brock, Captain, a-wan, etc? If not, maybe you should just stop piggybacking on a false idea and throwing us all off the track. Unless, of course, Terry Ryan is mailing you checks for this. If so, what's your cut? And how do I also sell my soul and get in on it?

If one pitcher graduating is enough to send your prospect ratings into the bottom third of the league.....I don't think that helps your argument one single bit.

@Hosken Bombo Disco Note the evidence used. You are "conversationally" misleading people with a demonstrably false claim. One you refuse to give any merit to with actual information. I won't presume bad intentions that you KNOW the claim is false, but perhaps before you piggyback on a misleading claim you might want to, I don't know, make sure it isn't false?

If such a claim had evidence one would think by now you would provide it rather than tap dancing around vague definitions.

This is not evidence. Hence why it is you who is making the misleading claim that 2017's pitching was left "fine".

If there is any one thing I would want to fire these two for it's this. Over and over and over again we invest in Zimmer's pet projects and over and over and over again he sits them on the bench. If you need three years to develop dudes, make those picks in the 3rd and 4th round. The early rounds should be for guys impacting by the end of their first season.

The next time you post any evidence to support this will be the first time you've done so. By all means. I consider "fine" roughly league average. Prove your case. A list of A-ballers and two dudes who were ok is not a "fine" pitching staff. But maybe I'm wrong. Let's see your evidence.

Kirbs, you are a great poster and I appreciate reading your contributions. I think you got sucked into a sidetrack. The nexus of the conversation has been gunnathor's assertion about the state of the pitching in 2017. I didn't differentiate the hotting because I thought the context did that. Apologies. Analyzing '17 vs. '21 sounds like an exercise in self harm. All yours

No one is having that debate? You're having a hard time reading what people are actually saying. Gunnathor started by asserting that the Twins were left with good pitching talent by Ryan for the new FO. That's demonstrably false. There have been several pages of evidence that have been posted rebuking that claim and most of the responses to that evidence have been muddled arguments that aren't addressing the core issues. As your post is here again. At some point, you and others have tried to shift that into a competition of "What's worse?" between '16 and '21 which is utterly irrelevant. No one (NO ONE!!!!!) is arguing '21 isn't in bad shape because of blunders by this FO. They screwed up and the team's pitching at the major league level is in rough shape. Your second paragraph is exactly what's wrong with what you and gunnathor are doing. You shift the conversation all the time so everyone talks past each other. This entire conversation has been about pitching. Why would something I say about the pitching apply to the hitting? You know, the hitting side that I have TWICE acknowledged was in good shape when Ryan left? The 2019 and 2020 rotations were entirely built by the FO other than Berrios. The depth in the bullpen and in the rotation were both significantly better because of their additions. The lineup? Definitely most of that credit goes to what they inherited. I shouldn't have to make that point a third time when we were talking about pitching!!!! Subtle shifts in the argument to misdirect what people are saying isn't good form. The claim made that the FO inherited good hitters has been roundly agreed upon. The claim made that the FO horribly wrecked the pitching this year has also been roundly agreed upon. The debate is about how much time do you let them have to show if those blunders are an outlier or not as well as whether or not the FO inherited good pitching talent to go with the hitting they had. The former is open to a lot of interpretation and some great ideas have been throw out there. The latter is pure nonsense and people citing evidence - not hugs and feels for Terry Ryan - have demonstrated that again and again. If you have some evidence about how much Terry Ryan regime pitching talents contributed to '19 and '20 - let's see it. Otherwise, stop shifting the discussion please.

See....I only see one "extreme" being argued completely devoid of fact and that's your stance. Certainly, the Ryan regime left the FO Berrios and Santana. There were one or two other guys that occupied spots (as in, they weren't all that good) or were moved to the bullpen and became contributors, but largely the staff was not good. This is born out by facts and statistics. Your argument is not. You're right that the new guys inherited some nice bats, but they supplemented them well also. Pitching? That required a nearly total makeover to get to where the team was in 2019 and 2020. I don't understand why you and others continue to try and put lipstick on the pig that is Terry Ryan's pitching farm system circa 2017. There is no evidence to sustain that point of view. To that point: do you realize you haven't made a sustained statistic, metric, or evidential argument yet in this thread? The next time you do, will be the first time in this thread. The closest I've found is quoting prospect rankings. Meanwhile, the people that are saying "look, there were a few guys, but mostly nobody" continue to site ACTUAL DATA to support them. And have done so for pages while you and others employ almost none. I would suggest to you that the extreme is the edge you're standing on. Perhaps if you'd come back from that ledge you'd see there could be agreement. But anyone looking at the numbers is going to tell you that you're wrong if you're going to argue 2017 had a bountiful pitching harvest just waiting for the new guys. There isn't room to compromise with a view that has no factual merit whatsoever. Soften your stance a bit and then maybe that could change.

The guy who only cites batting average to defend players is now going to rag on Arraez? I....I mean....Wha?

So your answer to a post about inherited talent (to which you frequently erred in assessing to add a cherry on top) was to compare 2017 to 2021 when no one is making that argument? The Twins were not left with much talent. What was done to get to 2019 and 2020's significant improvement is owed largely to savvy moves that dramatically improved the team by this FO. The 2021 failure is due to a lot of crappy moves by that same FO that EVERYONE AGREES WERE CRAPPY. I hope the all caps puts that twisted argument to bed. Sarcastic ass memes would be less necessary if we all stayed inside reality. Anyone celebrating the state of the post-2016 Twins on the pitching front isn't doing that. It's the entire point of contention and it is demonstrably nonsensical.

Breeland has a strong career background too. He made some great plays against the run yesterday between the blown coverages.

What exactly did this list say? Rick Aguilera Scott Erickson Kevin Tapani Greg Gagne Jim Kaat Dan Gladden Our resident source of this list bats 1.000 on misrepresenting who he speaks with so I'd like some information on what they said and how it all plays to the Twins being a terrible dumpster fire of a culture. Our resident source is also now on his second thread with his head in the sand about Viola so I'd really like to see the clear condemnation these players had for the current organization and a detailing of their extensive work in the clubhouse that would entail first hand knowledge of what is going wrong. Shoemaker is relevant because his gripes come from months of direct work with this team. They may not be fully fair, but at least they come with the requisite experience to gripe. The rest of these guys sitting at luncheons for a celebration for a week or two? This can't seriously be an argument.

From 2022 I'd like to see the following things: 1) A real step forward from some of our high picks. Sabato seems to be turning a corner, that needs to continue. Chase Petty needs to show some stuff. Cavaco needs to look like a top pick. Royce Lewis needs to show why he was taken where he was. Ditto Larnach and Kiriloff and Wallner. Most of the top picks were hitters and we're not seeing enough from them at this point. They don't all need to be amazing, but enough to feel good. 2) We've developed or acquired a lot of pitching that is currently in AA or AAA. We need Balazovic, Duran, Winder, SWR, Strotman take a step towards being a big leaguer. Either by getting their feet wet or dominating enough to show they deserve to be in the picture. Not all of them, of course just like before, but enough of them to feel good. 3) You've got money to spend. Assets you can move. Have an offseason that shows what your plan is. Whether that is aggressively selling, aggressively buying, aggressively trading to rework the roster, whatever that might be. Not waiting until late February for values. Plant your flag.

Seems right to start a new one. On the plus side, there's a good chance the whole division is 0-1 after today! And we had good special teams!

Sure looked down to me.

Hilarity knows no age good sir.

......you should maybe reread your own list. I dont know how you draw that conclusion with a straight face.

Worst ever? No, but that click-baity headline forced the discussion in a bad direction. He's been an objectively bad addition to the team. His defense isn't worth enough to have what amounts to a hitter worse than Mike Hampton at the plate.

We really need someone with a good eye for breaking down film to help explain the deception this guy pitches with. Watching hitters, they react like his pitches hopped through a wormhole halfway to the mound. His velocity and movement can't explain that IMO, something about his delivery is frying brains.