kab21

No I use facts. Park was sent down and he didn't come back up. Once that happened he didn't block Vargas. There is no indication that Park will be up before Vargas next season. You are the one using gut feelings.

So what is your alternative? Sign an overpriced mediocre FA because the FA market sucks? There is also only one significant trade chip that the Twins have (Dozier). The Twins are in this position because they haven't hit on any significant successes on pitching prospects. This changes if the Twins hit on 2 or more of Berrios, May, Gonsalves, Mejia, Jay or Duffey. That is the path out of this mess. Next year the rotation needs to survive and guys like Gibson and Santiago are part of that. And believe me that any remotely good pitching prospect will his chance.

Park was the reason that Vargas wasn't up the first couple of months but he wasn't the reason that Vargas spent some time in the minors late in the season and he won't be the reason that Vargas won't be up next year.

Twins starters have a 5.48 ERA. If those players perform to their averages and the offense takes another step forward with improved play from young players then this is a greatly improved team. It isn't awesome but there are constraints in the offseason (terrible FA market and a general lack of trade chips).

Your game failed. We have a useful but not great SS in Eduardo Escobar. And yes our options for the spot that Santana occupies in the rotation is him or more starts by AAAA pitchers like Pat Dean. We have holes behind Santana to be filled and there is very little available in FA and there are few trade chips available. I asked this question in a different comment 'Do you decline a Santana trade for a very good prospect if that prospect doesn't pitch?' There might be a team that will pay for Santana but when you start making position specific restraints on the prospects then it becomes a lot more difficult to get top value. But at the end of the day I completely agree that they should both be shopped. If a top trade package is there then make the deal and live with the pain in 2017. But I am not in a hurry to trade the only decent starter the Twins have for what is likely a borderline top 100 prospect at best. The bounty for Dozier is possibly 3-4x Santana's value. If I were to make a trade that would be the one.

Except the Twins have signed starters in the past. They haven't gotten an elite starter but they have spent money in FA so this is kind of a tired criticism.

The clear evidence of this would be Vargas being called up multiple times while Park spent the rest of the season in AAA before getting injured.

Start suggesting a FA starter that they should sign. This is a dreadfully awful year for starters. I am for trading prospects for veterans but not when you are coming off a 100 loss season and optimistically you are shooting for .500. Perhaps if you were targeting a Sonny Gray type (younger with upside) but most likely it would be a 30+ starter (like Santana whom some want to trade).

Stewart is the new Duensing of prospects. I am certain that no GM's have noticed is 5 K/9 rate. And veteran plus prospect trades for MLB ready starters trades are rare. Yes, there are exceptions but usually teams are looking at going one direction (rebuild or contend) or the other.

The options to improve the starting pitching: A) FA - this wouldn't be a great option even if there were decent starters available trade - the Twins have very few significant trade assets available. Dozier is the big one but you need to find a match. A team might trade a bounty for Dozier but do you decline that trade because they don't have the starting pitching that you want? Santana might get a good prospect but same question? The team would be foolish to trade prospects for MLB starters at this point. Nobody is saying that it is awesome but there are restrictions as to what is possible to do this offseason. The biggest hope for 2017 is that Berrios completely reverses his 2016 and pitches like he is capable of and the Twins get some solid pitching from someone else like Gibson, May or Duffey that can carry over to 2018. The biggest though is that Jay, Gonsalves and/or Mejia (and other prospects) take big steps forward and are ready for 2018.

Trade Dozier and replace him with Polanco. A step back but Dozier can get a pile of good prospects potentially. Trade Santana and replace him with Pat Dean (or another mediocre AAAA starter) and hope to get one good prospect. That is the problem with trading Santana. I am for it if there is a good prospect involved but the rotation goes from questionable to much worse.

there should be no illusions that the Twins will field a great rotation next year. These are unfortunately the restraints that the Twins have with regards to starting pitching. The FA market is terrible and the Twins really only have one trade chip (Dozier) that will bring back a good MLB pitcher or really good prospect. Next year the Twins starting rotation needs to survive (not be historically bad) and give the Twins something to build on in 2018. I am willing to trade Ervin if there is a legitimate good return available (like a top 100 prospect and an upside lower level prospect) but making the team (and especially the rotation) worse isn't something that this team should be doing. Unless of course a really good prospect is coming back. Berrios - I agree that you just keep sending him out there. He has shown that he can handle AA/AAA and hopefully an offseason to reset himself. His stuff should work really well in the rotation. Gibson - In fairly typical Twins Daily fashion I was not nearly as excited about him last offseason and I am not nearly as down on him this offseason. He should be back. If I had real plans to add TWO very good MLB starters then I wouldn't mind sending Gibson somewhere else but realistically this isn't going to happen. Santiago - His role is to take up rotation space for next year so the team doesn't get killed in the first few innings. It is nothing special and many will hate it because for some reason they want to see the likes of Pat Dean and Andrew Albers making starts. The upper minors starting pitching gets really thin really fast. If the Twins are serious about adding one legit MLB pitcher (not a one year flyer or a pitcher that has once thrown >50 MLB IP in the last 5 years) then he can easily be gone. Trevor May - this is the spot that can be competed for in spring training with May penciled in. Unfortunately only Mejia is a real threat early in the season. Mejia is the plan B if any of the shaky starters above falter or someone gets injured. Gonsalves has only started 13 games in AA with a 4.5 BB/9. I like his potential but he shouldn't be an option until at least midseason. Jay has only started 2 games in AA and he shouldn't be an option until late in the season. Stewart continues to post nice ERA's and awful K rates. perhaps he is an option at some point next season but I hope he is nothing more than the #5+ option to be called up. This definitely isn't impressive but this can be a solid (still below average) enough for an improving offense.

The only reason not to keep Park next year is if he is upset about being in AAA. Right now the Twins have enough 1B and DH but that can change quickly. I think he is a legit MLB player and would like the option of calling him up vs the next Erik Lis if a player gets injured.

Yes, it goes without saying that only one of Park or Vargas can be on the roster. But then all 4 would have been listed.

Those guys (Mauer, Sano and Vargas) on the same roster is only an issue if Sano truly can't play 3B.

There are three reasons that Vargas isn't DH next year A) Sano physically can't play 3B (small possibility) - even with Plouffe injured, Sano still doesn't play every day. EVEN THOUGH I am one of Sano's biggest detractors (or realists) defensively, you just put him out there (unless injured) because that is the best mix of talent for this roster Vargas stops Vargas - He completely falls apart after a very promising season. We have unfortunately seen this before with young players. C) Someone else (like Park) shows that they are substantially better Vargas at DH next year WILL be part of my offseason plan.

the Twins aren't really hurt if Rosario is their third best OF though. The Twins are hurt if he is their best OF or if Santana is their best starter. The difference between 3rd and 4th in either situation isn't that big of a deal.

Yes, he would be an excellent 4th OF but in order for that to happen the Twins need to have 3 other OF'ers that are better than him. Right now the only players with that chance are Kepler, Buxton and Palka but they are far from proven also. I will wait to call him a 4th OF'er until somebody supplants him as a starter.

Both Polanco and Sano are playing just about every day but not as 3B. Have the Twins said anything about Sano and 3B in the last week or two? There is a lot of speculation in this thread but it would be nice if we actually knew what their thoughts on Sano and his limited 3B duty. Everyone wants to blame Plouffe but the last credible report from 8/17 (Rhett Bolinger) said that Sano wasn't throwing at full intensity yet and would serve primarily as DH. I highly doubt that Sano is going to play more than half of the games at 3B (probably more like 25%) in September. And the reason isn't Plouffe.

here is a bold prediction - Meyer absolutely dominates next season because he is healthy and before the end of 2018 he undergoes substantial shoulder surgery. It will be awful to watch as a Twins fan and the FO criticisms will reach epic proportions but that arm is pitching on borrowed time. I definitely don't wish an injury on him but that is reality.

Sano being relegated to DH is dependent on his arm. Just because he had a clean MRI doesn't mean that everything is okay. Vargas is an unfortunate casualty if that is the case though because I really like Vargas but if Sano is the DH then Sano is the DH and you work from there for the rest of the positions. If Polanco is starting at SS then Escobar is an awful option as a starting 3B.

Reality check - few teams would trade Dozier right now unless the haul was massive. He is a streaky player and I would love to receive a massive haul for him. The problem is that one poster pointed out that 2B isn't particularly a position of need. At a minimum I would be looking at the equivalent of an Alex Meyer type (front line starter) and then some. If this deal is out there then let's make it. Otherwise you keep him and consider a trade at the next year's deadline or offseason.

Even when the words nothing structural are the diagnosis I am skeptical. At this point you do what is right for Sano and don't worry about Park/Vargas. the logjam sucks but Sano is the priority. If he should be DH then they have no place on this team. And then you think about 3B.

No, this wasn't the reason. Sano hurt his arm and is barely playing 3B because of it. The Twins are in a tough spot. If Sano's arm is really messed up and he needs to DH next year (which he basically should be regardless) then Plouffe on a one year deal (last year of arb) is a good option. And then the internet exploded... This sucks for Vargas though because I really like him as a one dimensional hitter. He does that well. Not much else.

I really hope that I never have to read another post about the Twins having too many starters and some prospect is blocked. These things always work themselves because a lot of pitchers are needed for one season. I really don't understand this move with <1 week until expanded rosters.