PseudoSABR

Three years is a long way away. Put another way, the possibility of contributing next year does not seem to be have been a factor in the list (e.g. Gordon, Romero, Jay, and Gonsalves (to a lesser extent) are ranked more poorly in this list than others)

Proximity to the majors clearly wasn't much of a factor. This is more like a Top 10 list of highest ceiling guys.

Good thing that's not happening in any "official" sense; as for it happening on social media--well, awkward pick-up lines are are hardly the only way to get eviscerated. If by nuance you mean grandfathering in old bad habits, some how exempting the awkward--well, no, I don't think that's any kind of solution. But if you mean nuance by looking at each situation case-by-case within its context, absolutely, and no one is pushing back against it. What I'm pushing back against is the notion that its too much to ask for men to discern what is or is not appropriate. Where there is grey area (what little there really is), men should seek clarification and weigh on the side of caution. I imagine there's all kinds of tactics that HR people, educators, sociologists have come up with to aid men in making that determination. What I don't want is to drag our feet on this issue in defense of the jerk who holds himself out as the awkward guy.

We're now just arriving at a cultural moment were sexual harassment is not the norm. I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to start worrying about the sexual-harassment Gestapo. Again, I don't know of any sexual harassment policy that has a one-allegation and your done rule. Most policies have the flexibility to forgive and redress mistake. But for more severe conduct--like a mistake in sexual consent--isn't forgivable, like a mistake in giving an unsolicited compliment is; the policies should, and I believe do, account for the distinction. Largely lack of enforcement and unwillingness for victims come forward have been the factors that left sexual harassment unaddressed. It's on the awkward people to get up to speed on what's appropriate, not on us. I was awkward, but I had no problem discerning what might be inappropriate and in fact, steered well clear of any gray area (part of my awkwardness). If awkward guys have a harder time getting dates as a result of sexual harassment policies--well, so be it; our society can live with it. Again, there won't be any severe consequences if the mistake is honest, minor, and they learn from it. (And honestly, you're better than painting my argument as an insincere charade to be part of some partisan group. You're saying context will make the distinction more gray; I'm saying it will make the distinction of whether there is sexual harassment more clear and simpler.)

I'd counter with: it's rarely gray. In any employment/student misconduct situation there are cases that fall in the gray area. I don't think sexual harassment presents any more gray area than say plagiarism. In fact plagiarism is a good touchstone, in that educational institutions need to make it a priority to educate students about what plagiarism is and where there's any confusion on your part, don't do it. As ashbury indicates, the solution to not getting in trouble for sexual harassment is exceedingly simple: stay away from the line/the gray area. If you suspect your compliment to a coworker might be sexual harassment, don't say "Damn girl, that dress looks good on you!" If you don't think it could be construed as sexual harassment, go ahead and say, "That's a cool dress, Rita!" Of course things like word-choice, intent, and relationship of the sayer and sayee all matter. That's why no work place or school has an one-allegation and you're done rule. Again, hypotheticals are obviously more gray than any actual allegation; so let's avoid parsing them.

What is your point again? (That because it's not simple every time, why even have a policy at all? Or because one hypothetical might be ambiguous, false accusation will be rampant, and we must protect the powerful men?!) It can absolutely be harassment to comment on appearance, but the comment nick proffered, standing by itself, no reasonable person will believe constitutes harassment. However, if such comments are always made by the alleged harasser, and always directed at the alleged victim, and are combined with other advances, sure. There's some gray area, but only often in terms of what we pre-select as what might constitute harassment, but when it comes to an actual harassment allegation, there will be real facts and history and culture that help us determine whether or not its harassment. And the determination in the vast majority of cases will, indeed, be pretty simple. The thing is, dudes that sexually harass women will try to toe the line and keep doing what they are doing--it's their intent that in problematic, along with their behavior and what they say. If it's ambiguous, its worthy of an investigation. And the ambiguity may indeed work against men, as the opposite fosters the very culture we are trying to change. Typically, sexual harassment doesn't result in someone losing their job. Esp. the 'that's a nice dress' variety. Companies have process for dealing with first, second, third allegations about the same person. Will such process stop all false-accusations from having some appreciable affect? No. But it will have the affect of stemming the systematic sexual harassment that does take place. All that said, there's plenty of comments and behaviors that perhaps don't rise to level of sexual harassment but are nonetheless sexists and would have the potential to make women feel uncomfortable. Awkward dude should ask himself, would I make this same comment to a male coworker? If the answer is no, that's a clue. If the answer is yes, it still may not be cool. There's nothing wrong with putting a burden on dudes to shape their behavior; in fact, that's the whole point.

For another take on due process and sexual assault standards both on campus and off, there's this.

I guess you aren't counting the reports out of Chattanooga. It's been like a week, dude. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on the lack of new allegations.

It's interesting how the Twins built in advantage (Levine's personal relationship with Darvish) is construed as incompetence or whatever else.

Nothing about #metoo takes away confidentiality. She spoke in confidence with those she trusted.If you mean you would have preferred the matter be handled internally--well, that's been modus operandi for decades, and yet we obviously still have a systemic problem with sexual harassment/assault. These aren't just a few bad apples; the problem is cultural, social, structural, and it is exacerbated by those who wish to keep this kind of information from public view.

Any job where your income is dependent on your capacity to interact with and be adored by the public creates a higher standard to which such people must be held to as to maintain their employment. Sano's profession is meaningless without fanfare, and offers no service or product that has function outside the limelight.

Which actually does help people, as the issue is systemic, and not mere aberrations by a few bad apples.

Thanks for this articulate, thoughtful post.

To reverse your absurd analogy. What if your neighbor is smoking pot, or even dealing it? Do you still have moral duty to report? (This isn't meant to be fair question, but nor is your murder example, which is sensational, and intended to force the answer you seek). Investigations and trials themselves are not innocent processes that have costs, especially to those traumatized. You can't lay claim to any moral high ground and not acknowledge those costs to the very people we're supposedly trying to protect.

The criminal justice system is NOT the answer to the problem of systemic sexual assault/misconduct. Most sexual assaults--esp. without penetration--leave little hard evidence, beyond the testimony of a shaken victim. The high burden of proof necessary to prove guilt is very hard to overcome based only on the testimony of traumatized victim. What the answer often is is to shut-up and listen to victims, and to acknowledge one's own role either in saying nothing or in laying the groundwork where the credibility of the victim is the focus rather then the actions of the perpetrator.

I think people are conflating their need for punishment with what her desires were in sharing. She clearly says she doesn't any kind of justice--rather she shared it along with many other women who have in the #metoo campaign. I think her goal was social awareness, and perhaps to warn people about Sano, not to punish him.

What advice would you give her? Keep it to herself? If she doesn't desire Sano to be formally punished but rather to share her story because it happened to her (and indeed warn other women about him), she just should have stayed quite? Her motive isn't simply to get it off her chest (I'm sure she's done that with friends and loved ones) but to contribute to the ongoing effort to stymie the systematic abuse done by men in power. As you suggest, she shared her story at great personal risk; why not see that as something heroic, that lends itself to the veracity of her account, rather than as a means of criticism?

There's no time limit or harm threshold. Those factors are considerations in sentencing. If we accept the facts of her account, regardless of the time limit, he's probably guilty of misdemeanor assault and kidnapping (I don't know Minn. state law, but generally the caselaw is pretty permissive in terms of constitutes confinement (such as chocking). Typically attempts of a crime are charged as the crime themselves. 609.224 ASSAULT IN THE FIFTH DEGREE. §Subdivision 1.Misdemeanor. Whoever does any of the following commits an assault and is guilty of a misdemeanor: (1) commits an act with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or (2) intentionally inflicts or attempts to inflict bodily harm upon another. 609.25 KIDNAPPING. Subdivision 1.Acts constituting. Whoever, for any of the following purposes, confines or removes from one place to another, any person without the person's consent or, if the person is under the age of 16 years, without the consent of the person's parents or other legal custodian, is guilty of kidnapping -- Ten minutes may seem like a long time for a single act to occur, but I think we need to stop seeing this as one act by Sano, but rather a serious of acts, where he used a variety of methods to get her to go with him--pulling, pleading, kissing her, mere restraint, joking, smiling, kissing some more, pleading, more pulling, come on babe, just this way, no, no, no, come on, it will be fun etc. etc.--all while holding on to her wrists. Again, he didn't want to force her to go (he could have simply done that), he wanted to break her will, and for her to relent -- to come with him, to allow the kissing, and god knows what else. Sano's physical acts are beyond reproach, no matter how we might minimize them--but, I think more importantly, is that those physical acts were executed to wear Betsy down. He didn't want to hurt her-per se, he wanted to forcibly shape her will to his desires, which, at least for my part, is it's own separate harm aside from the physical injuries she may or may not have received. I will continue to harp that we need to measure our demand for hard evidence with the reality that abusers operate in such a way that they leave none and only the word of some one whom you wouldn't believe, left traumatized and unreliable.

We agree on waiting to decide on any consequences. As I've said, I hope any investigation doesn't seek to discredit the accuser but to corroborate basic facts. But if you think a ruined reputation is somehow the equivalent to jail-time, I imagine you haven't faced the consequence of jail time. Yes, it's horrible to face false accusation, but it's not the same as going to jail. And neither is the equivalent of being victimized, and being afraid to tell someone because people won't believe you and will tear your life apart. And really, let's put the false accusation narrative in full view. Beyond the Duke LaCrosse team, and amid all of the recent cascade of accusations of sexual assault, how many are know to be false? How many celebrity's reputations ruined?

This mischaracterizes what I've said. I said we don't need an investigation in order to believe the victim. I think when it comes to consequences, there should be an investigation (and I've said so again and again), but I don't think that should include trying to discredit the accuser (which is what happen would happen in the court room). Again, I'm not sure what other kind of evidence you expect to come forth. And if the lack of it means you don't believe her, well, I've got problems with that attitude.

A person's statements are proof. She has every right to tell her story. It happened to her, and it's her truth. And to be clear, Sano will not lose his job by mere accusation; these are credible accusations that have been partially corroborated because the story was relayed to friends at the time of incident. Yes false accusations do happen, but what happens far more often is sexual assaults which go unreported because of the ringer that too many demand we put victims through to protect powerful men's reputation and job.

He doesn't have any rights as a private person accused by another private person. (He may have the right to sue for libel/slander, but truth is a defense against such). You're conflating public judgment with criminal liability. Sano is not going to face jail time because twitter (or Twins Daily) thinks he's an abuser. We as individuals owe Sano nothing, and are free to judge with the facts we have.

What issue in terms of severity are you questioning? The ten-minute time frame? That Sano was holding her by the wrists? The forced kisses? And as I've said, the issue of punishment is different from the conclusion that an assault happened. In some people's quest to get the punishment right, they seem to be skipping passed the need to say that an assault happened, and a women was victimized.

Well, certainly, her allegations as such are likely not enough to convict Sano of a crime (whether they are true or not). But whatever incongruities or vagaries you may see I don't think should lead any of us to doubt her account--that she was assaulted by Sano.

You can't imagine Sano trying to get her to relent for 10 minutes. That seems like a small time in order to defy credulity. That she's boxer has nothing to do with it. (If she was really threatened, she would have gauged his eyes out, drawn gun, screamed for help, etc.etc.) In bygone years, the legal standard by which they would measure criminal sexual assault was whether the woman resisted as a reasonable person would have, never mind that these were all old, white, male judges making such assessments. Thank god, that's no longer the legal standard.