chopper0080

Ok, so if I had the blueprint, I would be working in the majors, but here is my opinion. Any time a team chooses to take a step back or has to work transitioning from poor contracts or a poor front office, there will naturally be a step back. It can legitimately take a year or two. Here is where I have issues with the Twins. One: They weren't moving on from bad contracts. When people cite payroll, they cite a payroll decrease or less spending. That is a team driven choice. They don't get credit for this IMO because it is self-imposed. Two: What pieces have they added? In four years, what players has the team added other than drafted/signed prospects? Phil Hughes. In four years this team has added one quality MLB player. They have traded away two decent MLB CFs in that time frame as well, though it was for mid level / high talent prospects. IMO, that is pure laziness. Not only have this team not added high profile free agents, we have not even been able so sign average players who other teams want to trade for. Was Nelson Cruz really outside of our price range? Ervin Santana? Scott Kazmir? Jason Vargas? That is just 2013. Melky Cabrera? Mike Napoli? Stephen Drew? These are just the inexpensive ones. Seriously, how can this not be considered a failure? We have added one quality player in 4 years. We have consistently lost MLB talent and failed to replace it. Where is the progress? In the farm system? We have literally sold our cow for a bag of magic beans, and are waiting for them to sprout a beanstalk. That is not how a professional sports franchise should be run.

As a fan, I don't want the labor, show me the baby. Terry Ryan has failed to do that. He has failed to bridge the gap between awful, and whenever the prospects arrive. That is a problem. There are some valid points in this arguement in many regards. 1-FA isn't the best way to build a long-term competitive team. True. 2-Ryan has failed to consistently use FA to fill roster holes, and keep us competitive. True. 3-Ryan's front office has drafted well (on paper) since he has taken over. True. 4-Drafting at the top of the draft should be easy. True. 5-The Twins have one of the best farm systems in baseball. True. 6-Farm systems don't translate into big league success. True. What I find most amusing is what seems like the belief that you have to be terrible for multiple years to rebuild. With free agency and revenue sharing, that just isn't true. It is an old, and outdated concept of team construction. If you aren't going to spend on the top players, then you can't be missing on the mid range guys, and then using a lack of talent as an excuse for losing. If you create your own set of rules to operate by, then you deserve to be held to those. Ryan doesn't want to hand out large long term FA contracts...fine. Ryan doesn't want to spend to acquire top free agents...fine. Ryan doesn't want to trade minor league talent for major league players...fine. Ryan wants to keep under some arbitrary payroll number...fine. I don't mind an organization having rules like these in place. What I mind is when the organization and fans use those self imposed rules to provide an excuse when the team fails to be competitive for multiple years. Ryan has failed to supply our fired manager with legitimate major league talent for 4 years now, and it has led to 4 losing seasons. That is a fact, and it doesn't matter if it is because he is handcuffing himself with his own set of rules, or if he is just not doing it as good as the other teams out there. Facts are the Ryan has been a failure to date in his second tenure.

Yeah, I will believe in Sano when I see him at the major league level. Too many things can derail prospects between A-Ball and the Majors. Same goes for Buxton. Besides, since when has having too many good players ever been a problem for a team? Get the best pieces you can in trades, don't create holes that can't easily be filled, and sign legitimate talent when you can. As a GM, that is your job. Provide major league ready talent to your mjor league level roster, and create a farm system that is fostering and developing athletic talent. Figuring out ways to make all of the pieces fit is the manager's job, and if there is a total logjam of talent, the GM can make moves at that time. Let's not put the cart before the horse at this point. Sign a manager. Hire a staff. Use trades and free agency to acquire quality MLB talent. Worry about too much talent or guys coming up when they force you to. For a team coming off it's fourth consecutive 90 loss season, that shouldn't be too difficult.

Good to know, thanks for the info.

So, I guess my final offer if Sano, Meyer and Arcia for Stanton, as long as Stanton will agree to a 6 year extension, which puts him under contract until he is 32. Make that move, sign Hisashi Iwakuma, and fill in some defensive gaps and you have a contending team. It won't happen, but it is a feasible move with the assets we have in terms of prospects and payroll. Staff Hughes Iwakuma Gibson Nolasco Mays Bats Stanton Mauer Dozier Santana Vargas That could work, and you would still have Buxton, Berrios, Gordon, Polanco, Stewart, ect in the system.

Stanton is 24/25 years old. You are getting a young, proven MLB player who has the power to hit the ball out of Target field. And, as far the contract, it isn't a bad one. Giving a 24 year old big money for his prime years is ok. It is giving a 28 years old that goes into his mid 30s that becomes the issue.

Hell, if we aren't trading for Latos, I would offer Sano, Meyer, and Rosario for Stanton. Or, maybe Arcia would be more valuable to Cincinnati in a trade for Latos. Either way, I would slice up our top 20 to acquire two impact players under 28.

So, it was stated that a deal for Stanton would require more, which I think is worth considering. So I will amend my offer. Giancarlo Stanton for Miguel Sano, Oswaldo Arcia, and Eddie Rosario/Adam Walker. Gives the Marlins a cost controlled, power hitting RF for 2015, a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, as well as a power hitting minor league outfielder. Cuts payroll, can be sold to the latin community in Miami, and gives the team an out rather than paying Stanton a huge contract.

You think it would take Oswaldo Arcia or Jose Berrios being added? I'm just considering, the longer they wait, the less leverage they have which is what the Twins could exploit.

What I know is Joe Mauer needs to stay healthy, and adjust his approach at the plate to put more emphasis in driving the ball. I don't believe Mauer will ever be a power hitter, expecially in Target field, but I do believe Joe can develop his body in order to be more durable, and adjust his approach at the plate.

I will bounce this idea here as well. My trade targets would be Giancarlo Stanton and Mat Latos. Stanton has expressed his disinterest in the Marlins franchise, and they are always limited in their ability to offer big contracts to players. I would offer them Miguel Sano, Eddie Rosario, Adam Walker and Jason Wheeler for him. If I needed to add more, I probably would under the premise that he signs long term with the Twins. I would hesitate to add Buxton instead of Sano, but I might consider it. Probably would not add Stewart, Meyer or Berrios. MIght be willing to go as high as Gonsalves. It might not be enough. For Latos I would offer Alex Meyer, Max Kepler, and Travis Harrison. Again, I'm not sure that would be enough, but it would be my opening offer. Prospects I would really hesitate to move are Buxton, Gordon, Polanco, Berrios & Stewart. Sano would have to be for a special player which I believe Stanton is.

Players I would trade prospects for Cole Hamels Mat Latos Johnny Cueto Yu Darvish Elvis Andrus Desmond Jennings Matt Joyce Carlos Gonzales Wade Miley Ervin Santana Mike Minor Hisashi Iwakuma David Peralta and Giancarlo Stanton...who I would part with Sano and a 2nd tier pitching prospect for. The Marlins are quietly shopping him as they don't expect to be able to pay to keep him. I'm not sure if I would move Buxton for him, but I might. For the rest of them...pretty much every prospect would be available. I would probably deal highlight a deal with Meyer before Mays or Berrios. Maybe add a hitter as well. Essentially Miguel Sano, Eddie Rosario, Adam Walker and Jason Wheeler for Giancarlo Stanton Alex Meyer, Max Kepler, and Travis Harrison for Mat Latos Honestly, I'm not sure this would be enough to get these guys, and I might add more if that was the case.

Wonder if Olberman would feel the same if it was his long term financial advisor who had lost him money the past 4 years. It is easy to profess loyalty when you aren't tied to the success of the individual.

It was the move that had to be made. That is the business of sports. Hopefully the Twins focus on building a staff to work with and develop young talent. That seems to be the direction that they are going.

I would wait. I don't see the win for the team in paying him more for his prime years while also acquiring more of his less prime years. I would prefer to negotiate an extension closer to the age of 30, more leverage.

My honest question is this, and it is partially related to Hicks and Santana and Arcia. Is this team in any way the place to foster and develop young talent? Hicks has underachieved. Santana doesn't have a position. Arcia has decided to go with his own hitting approach. Even if you buy the magic prospect beans, what has this team done with young prospects that makes you feel like they will be successful in developing them? I just don't see it.

Hell, I could be successful with this plan. Be awful enough to acquire a bunch of top 10 picks, and wallow in losses under the premise that the ship will magically come in "next year". This year was a trainwreck, just like the previous three. Unless something changes, next year will be the same. Players will get hurt. Other will exceed expectations despite the circumstances. Some will fall short. In the end, we will struggle with timely hitting, consistent pitching, and situational baseball. We will lose a bunch of games with the promise that things will be better in 2016. Rinse and repeat.

This seems short-sighted to me, but par for the course for the Twins. IMO, I can find serviceable CFs easier than SSs long term. Honestly, tough for me to be shocked by any decision from the franchise that will likely keep a manager who has lost 90+ games, four seasons in a row.

If Gardy returns, please put me down as the first to say it will be 5 90+ loss seasons in a row. With so many succssful teams in baseball, you would think the Twins could find one manager to poach who would be able to at least lead us to 90 loss seasons just like Gardy. I think this board gives him both too much credit, and too little accountability for a manager of a team who has lost 90+ games, 4 seasons in a row. Someone said it isn't smart to make change for change sake, I'm pretty sure we would be making a change because we are one of the worst teams in baseball for the 4 year in a row.

It is funny how people can maintain that there isn't a losing culture, or that the coaching staff/front office are not to be held accountable for this mess. Why should Gardy and his staff get fired? Because they couldn't figure out how to make Hardy, Liriano, and CARLOS FREAKING GOMEZ work for this team. I'm pretty sure that as a leader, your job is to motivate and foster the development of the individuals on your team. When you start to fail to do so is the time the team moves on. That ship has sailed. Why should Ryan get fired? How about holding onto a coach who is driving off talent, and not developing it. How about signing broke down players like Mike Pelfrey. How about not dealing players at the peak of their value, and instead waiting for their value to decrease so you get nothing for them. How about using the cost of free agency as a reason to not bring in outside talent. I'm sorry, but this is professional sports in the era of free agency, and revenue sharing. Local media contracts. The experience of the park. In a time where youth interest is at an all time low for baseball, the plan is for patience? News flash, the five year development plan days are over. Done. It is a washed up excuse that is only bought by fans who are living in the past. St. Louis. San Francisco. Baltimore. Tampa. KC. Cleveland. These are competitive teams. The excuses for a lack of money, and a long term plan are over. The Twins are being beat at their own game. Payroll is no longer an excuse. It isn't the payroll. It isn't the market. It isn't the farm system. The Twins are losing 90 games for the 4th season in a row because almost every other team in baseball is doing it better. Better free agents. Better talent development. Better coaching. Better roster development and mix. Better strategy. The time for excuses is over. You either change, or you stay in this spiral. End of story.

The problem is that we have several rosters spots WORSE than Suzuki and Plouffe which is a problem. Yes, good teams have players like Plouffe or Suzuki on their roster, but they are the weak links and they are not counted on to win games. You can't expect to win when you are counting them to be consistent while your young, sporadic players like Vargas, Santana, and Arcia are going thru the ups and downs to breakinginto the big leagues. You can't have holes at SP, holes in the OF, holes at SS, and then say that you are counting on Suzuki and Plouffe with expectation that is is a winning formula. We need to add significant talent at some sort of mix of OF, SP, SS,3B, and C. If there is an upgrade over Suzuki at C, we need to take a hard look at it. If there is an upgrade available at 3B, we need to look into it. SP is the same. OF is the same. Now, not every position is going to have those opportunities in an offseason, but the ones that are, need to be acquired.

That fact that they weren't IS the problem, and pretty much the reason we are a 90 loss team.

Here is what I am comfortable with going into the 2015 season...Not saying they are going to be great or not regress, but I am either comfortable with their production or I am comfortable letting them develop IN the starting lineup. C-Not 1B-Mauer/Vargas 2B-Dozier SS-Santana (or Not if teams puts him in the OF) 3B-Not LF-Not CF-Not RF-Arcia DH-Vargas SP1-Not SP2-Hughes SP3-Not SP4-Gibson SP5-Not (though we can pencil in Nolasco because Twins won't eat his contract) CP-Perkins I count 7 positions that I am not comfortable with heading into 2015, and need to be upgraded in order to improve this team. One spot the Twins will eat because they will not cut Nolasco despite being terrible. They will hope and pray on that one. So that leaves 6 starting positions that need to be filled with better talent in order to compete for a title. I don't believe that will happen, I believe this team is comfortable trotting out players like Kurt Suzuki and Trevor Plouffe while they wait on their prospect pipe dream, despite that resulting in 90 loss seasons year after year.

Just to put my thoughts on this matter... What I know is that on our roster, only Mauer, Dozier, Hughes, and Perkins have produced at a high enough level over multiple recent years to be penciled in for a starting spot. I'm am not counting other bullpen arms. 1B-Mauer 2B-Dozier 2SP-Hughes CL-Perkins What I know is that on our roster, only Arcia, Vargas, Santana, Gibson, and May have produced enough to deserve a role on the team, but have the talent to earn a starting spot. However, there is a high possibility of initial regression in 2015. DH-Arcia w/ RF potential DH-Vargas w/ 1B platoon potential Util-Santana w/ CF/SS potential 5SP-Gibson w/ 3SP potential RP-May w/ 3SP potential I know we are committed financially to Nolasco, and he has shown to be a 5SP at best. Potential as a 4SP. I know both Suzuki and Pinto could be significantly upgraded at C. I know that SS is a hole, but the team has not commited to using Santana to plug that hole, and instead relied on mediocre talent to do so. I know that Plouffe is totally upgradable at 3B. I know that Santana has been our best OF in 2014 but may be the teams SS in 2015. I know that Arcia has excellent power potential but is not a great fielder. What I know leaves us with holes at C, 3B, SS/CF (whichever Santana doesn't play), LF, 1SP, and 3SP. Those are the holes that need to be filled. What do I know about filling those holes? I know that counting on higher level prospects to come in and contribute right away has had mized results. Gibson, Hicks, May and Arcia have struggled while Vargas and Santana have not. That leads me to believe that counting on Hicks, Sano, Buxton, Meyer, Berrios, and Rosario to contribute in 2015 is pretty foolish. Milone is a wild card, but the A's preferred a bunch of other SPs over him. MIght be an indicator to his overall talent level. I know that the Twins have revenue to add top FAs or take on large contracts in a trade. I know it is more likely that the Twins will be able to trade for a large salary player than sign one as a FA. In the end, we have lots of work to do.

Do one thing exceptionally well first, THEN learn to do everything else as well. You have to have something to build upon before you can become well-rounded. Let em learn. Let em grow.