Riverbrian

I can still hear the echoes of years past with a large contingent saying just wait until Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Berrios get here. #1 Ranked Farm System in Baseball and all that. Now they are here and we have plans being made to wait until the next wave. The Baseball Gods have a twisted sense of humor. It can't be denied.

I was alive and have vivid memories of 1987. I remember the Cards in 2006 and the Giants and the Royals. Any team that makes the playoffs can win it and have. In not just baseball but Hockey and Football as well. If we keep trying to win the game on paper first... we might as well give up now.

Ultimately the blame goes to the people who hire the people. The people have now hired new people. I'm hoping 2019 will be different.

I believe a couple of factors came into play to produce the results you mention. #1 - Health - We had a couple of DL stints but for the most part, our pitching staff remained healthy and when healthy they will rack up the innings in comparison to other teams in the league who are enduring injuries in a more typical amount. #2 - Hiding and Burning Roster Spots - We started with 7 bullpen slots and the hiding/burning started right away when the Twins selected Tyler Kinley in the Rule 5. I had no idea who Tyler Kinley was but the idea of selecting a Rule 5 guy while at the same time spending money to sign free agents seemed contradictory to me. Selecting a rule 5 guy and returning him shortly after may seem like a "Oh Well We Tried" harmless spin of the wheel for a short time but Molitor wouldn't use him and this ratchets up the number of appearances his trusted bullpen posse would need to compensate for. Kinley made 4 appearances in April before he was returned to the Marlins on May 1. After Kinley was returned to the Marlins, Phil Hughes was taken out of the rotation around the same time and Hughes replaced Kinley in that long relief role and went on to make 5 appearances out of the bullpen until he was traded to the Padres May 27th. That's basically two months of the season and 9 appearances total between Kinley and Hughes. After Hughes was traded... Molitor... seemed to have a "we have to have someone held back) for long relief desire or need. That guy then became Matt Magill. After making 12 appearances in May and an impressive 1.53 ERA. Molitor had to have someone replace Kinley and Hughes and not pitch much in case things got bad in a game and Magill disappears of the radar for a total of 5 appearances in June. Now we are at 14 Appearances out of the long relief role for the first 3 months. This created a domino effect in the bullpen. When Magill switched roles, as mentioned above he went from 12 appearances in a month to 5. This means that someone would have to be added to roster to replace those innings that Magill used to absorb. This becomes a line of candidates who Molitor didn't seem to trust much and they don't replace the appearances that were being made by Magill. So now we are using up two bullpen roster spots to hide and basically waste and the trusted posse who remained healthy has to take up the slack. In my opinion... it was the combination of these two things that created the impressive list of Twins pitchers at the top of the MLB appearance rankings. I don't know if I've mentioned this before in other posts but in case I haven't. -- In 2019... I want 25 guys who can play and every player on the 25 man to be trusted and utilized.

Morrison was a no brainer. He may become a nice pick up for someone on a minor league contract next year but I’m glad it won’t happen in Minnesota. Santana... I’m fine either way. I still think he can get some batters out if healthy but he has a pile of arms gaining on him from behind in the organization and maybe his dollars can be better spent elsewhere.

I believe this is where we are unnecessarily talking past one another. I also agree 100% with your last sentence of this paragraph. The idea of sticking outfielders at 3B or 2B also makes me worry. I also believe decent defense is critical to preventing the crooked number and the crooked number creates losses. When I suggest Rosario for infield play... It's a "For Example to illustrate the benefit of the concept" but I have no idea if Rosario can play infield adequately enough and that is important. The benefit comes when he can actually do it. He doesn't have to be Nolan Arenado but he can't Bill Buckner on a loop either. I have said multiple times that I don't know if he can do it or not but it's not important to the discussion because he is just being used as a door way to the outer world of what I think is an important conversation. However... weather Rosario can or can't doesn't kill the dream or the possibility, you just consider the next possibility. It is still something to strive for and not something to be forced. In my opinion the Twins have never striven for it and the only examples that I can think of... were forced. Take Sano for example. Sano to RF was forced because we signed Park and loved Plouffe. I fully admit I was for the Sano in RF experiement because of my strong belief in the value of flexibility. However, It didn't take long for me to change my mind after watching him play RF and I wanted that particular genie stuffed back in the bottle... but that had more to do with how wrong the choice of Sano to RF was and not the idea of it. To bring all of this full circle... After watching Sano become our shining example of moving a player on the fly... I begin to seriously question just how bad we are at making these assessments... and once I'm at the point of seriously questioning just how bad we are at making these assessments... It's easier for me to believe that they may be wrong about Rosario... and just maybe he can play some infield. I'm gonna need to see it for myself now... and that’s when I start talking about whatever the hell they were doing with Astundillo because I could see for myself that he can play the catcher position. All in All... We agree... It's something to strive for and not something to be forced but I am obviously at the point where I feel... It has to be striven for and it has to start right now with the construction of the 2019 roster because I can't tolerate another year of suffering the incredibly bad play from our every day starters without an alternative to turn to.

Agreed. Finding 5 quality traditional starters and keeping them healthy throughout the year is perhaps the hardest thing that a GM has to do. It costs a lot of money, they require more DL stints than your 3rd Base Guy, they have up and down years and everybody is hanging on to whatever they have making them hard to trade for and it of course depletes the talent in the waiver pool since most teams are holding tight to anyone breathing. While we are not sure of the quality of our depth... we got a decent sense of the quantity of our depth. It sure looks like a collection of arms that can take an unconventional approach to the entire pitching staff and how they are deployed.

On this we agree 100% But here's something else for you to ponder. When I mention Betts getting some reps prior. Ramirez playing 2B and 3B... Kepler at 1B. Isn't that an attempt to develop the asset to be sought? Isn't waiting until Donaldson and Moustakas to be acquired the pushing of the domino or the crash coursing of Mookie Betts the eve of the world series... the very definition of implementing the strategy by force?

At the granular level. The Red Sox had 4 quality outfielders and playoff expectations that would hopefully involve the World Series and playing without the DH in a National League Park. Playing the national league style game not only involves the loss of the DH but double switches are part of the strategy and that makes the ability to move a player to a different position necessary to be able to utilize all of your options. Instead of working out Betts on the eve of the World Series to see if Betts at 2B is possible... they could have given Betts some reps at 2B earlier when they were 100 games ahead in the standings. Instead of a crash course with all the chips on the line. It's not that difficult to understand. The Indians were also a team heading to the playoffs with the same goal of a world series and games to play in the national league if they achieve it with no DH and Double Switches to ponder. Jose Ramirez has already proven that he can play both 2B and 3B yet they kept him at 3B exclusively. Despite having Yandy Diaz performing fairly well plus Lonnie Chisenhall with 3B experience and Jason Kipnis spending significant time on the DL. I'm not saying that the Indians knew they were going to acquire Josh Donaldson but I am saying that Joe Maddon would have played Ramirez at both positions throughout the year. The Brewers... I did not say... I would have played Travis Shaw at 2B earlier but in hindsight... Yeah... Why not... All reports are that he performed fine at the position and if he has the ability to play the position decently which was only discovered because the team acquired Moustakas... It could have been considered earlier. That flexibility is valuable for matchups, hot and cold streaks and injuries that you can't plan for. Counsell played Jesus Aguilar at 3B for 5 games because he was stuffed to the rafters at 1B when Thames was healthy. That's the granular level that you are trying to trip me up with. But all in all... you are missing the larger point. My logic is different because I've been looking at this all summer from all kinds of different angles. Here's the larger point: If teams can make switches like these on the fly during the heat of a pennant chase... Why can't the Twins do the same in the cold of not being in it. Why do the Dodgers do it all year long? Why do the Cubs? You claim the players being switched are not good at the position. Were they? Grab your telescope and take a look at the sky. Don't just throw Galileo in prison for heresy. The Earth is revolving around the sun at Wrigley Field and Dodger Stadium. I'll make it simple... Go get 13 Pitchers who can pitch... 12 Position players who can play. Once a team does that... they will have no choice but to adopt position flexibility to accommodate.

1. You did it again. I just stated that Shaw was an example of a team moving a player to another position in a very recent quote to you. I gave him his own paragraph to seperate him from My thoughts on Mookie Betts. I didn't suggest that Shaw should have played 2B earlier this year but you say "Boston and Milwaukee". If Milwaukee can move a player in the heat of a pennant race... Why can't the Twins when we are not in a pennant race? That's my point about Shaw. 2. You are the one saying "Noticeably Inferior". Even worse than that, you are saying that I am saying "Noticeably Inferior" "Several Times". I'm not saying "Noticeably Inferior". I never have said "Noticeably Inferior" or anything that approaches the same meaning. If I've never said it... I certainly haven't said it several times but you are allowed to type that and get likes for doing so. There is no difference between what you are doing here and the push polling political surveys that I'm getting on my telephone every day. Don't do that again. 3. "So when you suggest things like that" That is how you wrap up your point. You are suggesting things like that!

It wasn't a criticism of not playing Shaw at 2B. It's another example of how the teams staffing their lineup to the hilt make moves that like that in the heat of the pennant race and how teams make these virgin moves despite being in the heat of a pennant race. Mookie... Honestly it never would have occurred to me... I wasn't paying a lot of attention to Boston but then I read that they were working him it out at 2B to see if it was a possibility and I saw the logic but then questioned the preparation so that was a criticism. They got Benetendi, Bradley, Betts and Martinez who can all play OF and somebody is going to have to sit in the national league city if they make the World Series... Of course... they didn't play Betts at 2B but thinking about it... If you envision yourself World Series possible and I assume that the Red Sox were built to consider themselves World Series Possible.... Yeah... They should have tried something during the year. I do think that makes more sense then to try and slam it together quickly on the biggest stage. It turned out alright though... they won. Drilling down the granular level like you are though... Overall... you are missing the larger point. Shaw got moved to accommodate Moustakas and did so in a pennant race. Kepler can play a little 1B to accommodate Cutch/Jones. Yeah... Let's play Austin at Catcher and Sano at SS and Polanco at CF. Keep trying to reduce me to the lowest possible level you can.

Bingo I'm not sure how many neon signs are needed to get people's attention but... Starting Pitchers are throwing less innings and relievers are throwing more innings. The concept of the opener and bullpenning was successfully executed by the Rays and we just hired a manager straight outta Tampa. This ain't the 80's anymore. The walls have just started to come down on a 5 man starting rotation, a closer, two set up guys, a long relief guy and 4 guys filling out the bullpen off the waiver wire. Bullpen Guys no longer just throw one inning and hand the ball to the next guy. We don't have to cut Mejia because we ran out of starting rotation space, Mejia and others can throw multiple innings out of the pen.

My Fault I suppose. I know Carrot Top has a hard time being taken seriously when he tries to discuss his brilliant ideas for solving the water crisis in California.

It's not that complicated. It means prepare for success and prepare for failure. If the Twins sign Bryce Harper, Jones, Cutch or Pollock. If Max Kepler and Byron Buxton find it and become what they could be and Eddie plays like he played this year... and we got 4 outfielders playing good baseball. Move one to another position to find playing time. That's preparing for success. If the Twins sign Bryce Harper, Jones, Cutch or Pollock. If Max Kepler and Byron Buxton find it and become what they could be and Eddie plays like he played this year AND Tyler Austin who is out of options but given the 1st base job is hitting .156 in May... Move one of the 4 outfielders to 1B and that's preparing for failure. Or if Austin gets hurts for a month... move one of the 4 outfielders to 1B and that's preparing for failure. If the Twins sign Bryce Harper... Tyler Austin is doing fine but Buxton is still swinging at outside sliders and hitting .156. We got an Outfielder to try and Buxton does sink us because all the eggs are in the Buxton basket. That's preparing for failure. If Rosario is capable of playing a decent 3B... Now we got options in case Sano snaps the titanium rod in his leg but you got to plan for it by signing that 4th outfielder like Adam Jones or whoever. The way the Twins have done it for years... Is not sign Bryce Harper or Adam Jones because they have Rosario, Buxton and Kepler and they would call it good, set the roster and hope that Rosario, Buxton and Kepler perform and stay healthy. If they die... we die... and my summer is ruined. When one gets hurt we are sifting through the scrap heap for the Motters of the world to play meaningful innings. Just sign Adam Jones and let the players compete with each other and give me a manager like Maddon or Roberts who can figure it out. You become bullet proof by over staffing and this is how the Twins can follow the Brewers model and you can't over staff unless you have alternative places for players to play in case we have multiple players performing at the same position... Prepare for Success. No one can predict who is going to struggle and who is going to get hurt and where the need will be... Prepare for failure. I don't ever want to see 25 man roster spots wasted by players the manager is reluctant to play and even more so... I don't ever want to see Logan Morrison hitting under .200 and not having to check the lineup card. This doesn't have to be a hard concept to understand and it doesn't mean that Byron Buxton has to play SS. Just look at the Cubs and Dodgers and watch them move the players around for match-ups, for health reasons, for hot and cold streaks. Kris Bryant in RF one day and 3B the next. Javier Baez playing 2B, 3B, SS. Ian Happ at 2B, 3B and OF. Zobrist wherever and whenever needed. This is what I've been doing and this is why I'm trying my damnedest to pass it along to everyone but I can't get past... "every" player. Has the Cubs defense suffered as a result? Has the Dodgers defense suffered as a result? I don't know, and I'd love for someone to take the conversation seriously enough to provide some defensive data but I can't get past people thinking that Vargas should learn to play CF to take the conversation seriously enough. I do know this... The Dodgers and Cubs are in the playoffs every year so it ain't hurting them too bad and the Dodgers just survived more injuries than perhaps any team in baseball this year. And I do know this... Players move to new positions successfully when necessity demands it. I'm just openly questioning why we wait until the demand demands it. I've been sitting here all summer watching a couple of teams pull it off while the rest of the league hasn't figured it out.

"Every"? Earlier I quoted myself to you to specifically illustrate that I don't mean "every" guy. I still get "every".?

That's because when I make those caveats they get ignored as respondents end up focusing on something more sensational in my posts... such as "it's OK to play Kepler at 1B". (Gasp). I get responses like "Why not play Kennys Vargas in CF". or "Paul Molitor was responsible for 9/11 and I get marginalized in seconds using a ridiculous extreme, miles from my point. The Below quote was posted by me, in the same post, that triggered your reply and our discussion. If you see flexibility as an asset to be sought. We agree 100% The Twins haven't been seeking it and that includes as recent as 2018 and they gotta start somewhere. I've taken a lot of angles to point out relevant examples from today to bring the issue to light. From our playing time distribution to the Dodgers playing time distribution, from Nick Castellenos never playing 3B again to the curious case of Willans Astudillo to Max Muncy to David Bote to Josh Donaldson joining the Indians and Travis Shaw bouncing across the Milwaukee infield to Mookie Betts being considered for 2B play in the World Series. My intention is to be constructive and get people to notice what is happening in Chicago, Los Angeles, Milwaukee and Tampa Bay just to point out that Logan Morrison didn't have to play every day and Trevor Ploufffe didn't have to play every day in 2016 either. Did Joe Maddon have to endure "Why Not Play Kyle Schwarber at SS when he decided to play Kris Bryant in the OF? Sadly... Yeah... He probably did. Suggesting something different is the slow boring of hard boards and anyone who seeks to do it risks losing their soul. I've clearly lost my soul in my efforts to point out something different.

If Rosario can't play Infield decently... Of Course. We don't know that he can't. But if he can't... then he obviously isn't an option. Was he moved to OF because he wasn't any good at 2B or was he moved to the OF because Brian Dozier was in front of him? We did hear a few years ago that Polanco was moved from SS in the minors because he wasn't any good at it and here he is our SS. Polanco... We got somewhat of an idea. Yet he can't be moved? Grossman we got somewhat of an idea. Yet... He gets to play defense. If the concern is the thought of some sort of defensive compromise taking place? I'm saying we don't know the depth of that compromise, if there is one and also that we make defensive compromises all the time (example Polanco). If you know for sure that Rosario playing IF is a guaranteed defensive liability and that Sano and Forsythe are way better at it. Then I'll take your word for it and I won't consider it ever again but I will be curious how you know and I will keep looking for someone else. For the record... You are right... I am 100% against signing 9 1st basemen and playing them all over the field. Believe it or not... I think defense is important and I'm misunderstood if I'm giving that impression.

How?

Isn't this what I was saying? Look at the co-worker next to you on a routine Wednesday? I was just responding to this quote from SF Twins Fan. This is why a manager who can motivate is necessary. This is why a manager is necessary at Walmart for those routine Wednesday's and Aisle 14 is out of Goldfish.

Sounds to me like we are on the exact same page. I just read your earlier post as a countering to not trying it. You could join the club. I'm the president and I'll vouch for your membership and I am absolutely down with Adam Jones or Cutch joining the club and being handed a 1B mitt. Even the Dodgers play Seager at SS exclusively. The Cubs wouldn't move Russell from SS and they won't move Rizzo off of 1st base. You don't have to move everybody but you got to be able to move someone to accommodate the multiple scenerios that take place over the course of a season. Kepler became the poster child because he has 1B experience. I'm always surprised anytime any one doubts the efficacy of moving players around. I make assumptions like they must think Kepler at 1B is a full time gig and he will never play OF again. Or I assume they assume the Twins could never find an outfielder better than Kepler or only 2% of major league ball players can actually learn a 2nd position. I can't blame anyone for thinking that way because it has been entrenched in Twins DNA since you and I have been alive (You are Absolutely Older and you look it ) and we saw it manifest painfully this season. The Twins were uncompromising in regards to playing Kepler in the OF exclusively because of his talent but willing to compromise every time they played Grossman in the OF. The Twins were willing to compromise with Polanco as a full time average to below average SS but uncompromising in consideration of playing Polanco at 2B and the better SS Adrianaza at SS when both were in the lineup. I just want it to stop. I want 2018 to be the end of it. I can't struggle through another season like this one because I know it's out there and it's working. I'm hoping that Baldelli will be the one who stops it. I'm also under the assumption (based on where the finalists for the manager's job came from) that the Twins are ready to stop. Hyde from the Cubs? Baldelli from the Rays? No Showalter? I assume things are about to change for the positive. You can acquire 4 quality outfielders, 3 quality corner infielders and 3 quality middle infielders. You don't have to staff your 25 man on the back end with LaMarre and not play him. You just need a manager who can creatively figure it out.

Here's the scenario where Kepler playing 1B for a decent sized stretch of games comes into play. The front office listens to us and signs Andrew McCutchen or Adam Jones. Jake Cave has options so they place him in AAA and on opening day we have (let's call him) Cutch/Jones in RF, Rosario in LF and either Kepler or Buxton in CF with the other on the bench. During the month of April... it all goes as planned. All 4 are producing at a plus .800 OPS Clip. Our new Manager Rocco is doing a great job using the DH position and the occasional day off' for all 4 and everybody is getting decent playing time. Tyler Austin is playing 1B because he is out of options and too intriguing to just cut a drift. On May 1st... Austin pulls a doo-hickey and is projected to be out a month. The Twins look around the farm and there isn't a decent 1B option at Rochester. The best option is Rooker in Pensacola. However... Rooker still hasn't shown the ability to handle a decent curveball and is only producing an OPS in the .750 range in AA but he is the best we have at the moment. Rooker also isn't on the 40 man roster which means that the Twins will have to cut Chase DeJong to make room for Rooker. Rooker also starts his service time clock early before he is ready and he shows up and we pray that he figures it out quickly because the need is now and things have been going pretty well in April. The other option is Jake Cave who we stashed in AAA to make room for Cutch/Jones. Jake Cave has had a taste of the big leagues and he wants to get back so he is raking in Rochester. Cave is earning it... but the opening is at 1B so Rooker is called up instead and DeJong is cut a a result despite decent numbers in Rochester. Rooker struggles at 1B and we lost a pitcher. If Kepler can swing over to 1B for the month of May and back to the OF in June when Austin returns. Cave is the call up and now we have 5 OF'ers in June, Wade is coming along and all of a sudden one of those guys can be traded to pick up Justin Verlander from the Astros in July because we have a 10 game lead and it's time to keep upgrading. And then you and I are both happy. How do you prepare Kepler for a month at 1B... Play him at 1B in Spring Training and on occasion in April before Austin gets hurt. You can do it because we signed Cutch/Jones along with Buxton and Rosario that will allow for the opportunity.

I feel great because we just upgraded from Grossman to Adam Jones. At this point... I'm not overly passionate about individual names. I have my preferences but what I want right now is real simple... I want upgrades! Whoever they may be. With the end result being depth and flexibility and open competition at every spot.

I have no idea what you do for a living but take a look at your co-workers. Take a look at how they are on a routine Wednesday. That's what game 84 is like in the middle of the season. A clear illustration of the difference is going on right now. http://mlb.mlb.com/images/0/5/4/299835054/102718_erod_glove_slam.gif I'm not saying the players are lazy... I'm not saying that they don't try. I am saying that the urgency and effort isn't quite where it could be in June with another game to play tomorrow. And that is just like the guy or gal sitting next to you at work on a routine Wednesday. You won't see the above type of emotions in June. You will see players lay up on balls instead. How do you fix it and make them take game 84 as seriously as they are in the GIF above? Take away playing time through open competition. It's the only thing that I can think of.

Exactly But... something has always stopped the Twins short from adding that McCutchen type (My vote is for Pollock BTW) to the mix with the appearance of others in place. . Somehow it always ends up being a LaMarre/Mastro/Shane Robinson type instead. It isn't always a money thing either. The last time the Twins approached the IDEA of 4 decent OF'ers on opening day while planning a roster during the off season was 2015/2016. They couldn't figure out how to work with the depth and they traded Aaron Hicks and it wasn't the other 3 outfielders who triggered that terrible move. It was Plouffe is our 3B so Sano is our RF and never a 3B again (until Plouffe breaks a rib) and then Sano is never an OF again. It was Mauer can only play 1B so Park is our DH therefore Sano can't play 3B,1B or DH that convinced the Twins that they had too many OF'ers. Surprise... it turned out that we didn't have too many OF'ers after all and Hicks just might have been helpful all these years. For 2019... Now take the same McCutchen added to the OF process. And then repeat it at 1B/3B and 2B/SS and we are not seeing Ehire Adrianaza anywhere. But... once you repeat this process at all positions... you will need a certain amount of flexibility to maintain what happens next and nobody can predict what happens next. The players will let us know. The idea that Kepler won't play any 1B or Rosario won't play any 3B or 2B has always killed the idea of adding a McCutchen type in the past. I'd love to see the Twins climb over this imaginary hurdle that leaves them short every single year and go ahead... add McCutchen or Pollock or even Harper if we dare to dream that high. Prepare for success and prepare for failure. 25 guys who can play. Compete for every job, every inning.

Very true but the walls are coming down. We are going to find out if Rogers can throw two or three innings. He used to start in the minors. The Rays have blurred the lines... Baldelli was part of the line blurring. Ryan Yarbrough started 6 games for the Rays and he was 2nd on the team in innings pitched with 147. The Rays are going to continue to get more innings out of the bullpen and less innings out of starters and I'm willing to bet the Twins will be trying the same. There were 1443 innings pitched by the Twins in 2018. A similiar amount to be pitched in 2019. 13 roster spots reserved for pitching and a disparity between how many innings thrown by bad starters and how many innings thrown by lights out relievers. The disparity is going to close. Divide 1443 by 13 roster spots and that's what pitching could end up looking like.