NYM 9, MIN 6: Forever of a 5th Inning

USAFChief · April 12, 2019

You warm him up instead of Vasquez.
And yes, that may mean you have to warm him up again later.
Unless a guy is coming off an injury, I don't think you can make it a policy that they never warm up more than once.

Andrew Vasquez was recalled specifically for that one hitter he was supposed to face in the 5th inning. You're not going to use Rogers to get one out in the fifth, with the pitcher's spot due up next half inning, and 12 more outs to get.

Baldelli did exactly as he should have. The blame is on Vasquez, or more accurately Falvine for not having better pen options.

Mr. Brooks · April 12, 2019

Andrew Vasquez was recalled specifically for that one hitter he was supposed to face in the 5th inning. You're not going to use Rogers to get one out in the fifth, with the pitcher's spot due up next half inning, and 12 more outs to get.

Baldelli did exactly as he should have. The blame is on Vasquez, or more accurately Falvine for not having better pen options.

Well I would absolutely use Rogers. Third inning, fifth inning, seventeen inning, I don't care. The highest leverage outs can come anytime.

I'm not a fan of hard and fast rules regarding which innings each reliever can pitch. I hope that's the next tradition to die.

But, if Vasquez really was called up to pitch high leverage spots, then yeah that's on the FO. I'm really disappointed if the FO brought up a rookie with mediocre stuff to pitch high leverage spots though.

USAFChief · April 13, 2019

Well I would absolutely use Rogers. Third inning, fifth inning, seventeen inning, I don't care. The highest leverage outs can come anytime.
I'm not a fan of hard and fast rules regarding which innings each reliever can pitch. I hope that's the next tradition to die.
But, if Vasquez really was called up to pitch high leverage spots, then yeah that's on the FO. I'm really disappointed if the FO brought up a rookie with mediocre stuff to pitch high leverage spots though.

If you warm up Rogers every time you MIGHT need an out, he’ll be on the IL by May. If Odo doesn’t walk the pitcher he stays in the game, and you’ve wasted Rogers.

And to repeat myself from another thread, every reliever in the pen will be asked to pitch high leverage spots. Some more than others, for sure, but there are too many close games to think any reliever won’t ever be in spots that will impact the game.

In this specific case, if you use Rogers for one out (which, again, means he was warming up before you decided you needed a reliever), you’re left with 12 outs to get.

yarnivek1972 · April 13, 2019

As I have said before, the LAST thing I am going to do is fault Baldelli for using a “lesser” reliever in a particular spot when I crucified Molitor for continually overusing 2-3 guys during his entire tenure. If a guy is on the team, he needs to be able to get outs, PERIOD. Put the blame on Falvine for not improving the rotation forcing Baldelli to count on Odorizzi. Put the blame on Falvine for not improving the bullpen and having to use unproven commodiities like de Jong and Vasquez.

Mr. Brooks · April 13, 2019

If you warm up Rogers every time you MIGHT need an out, he’ll be on the IL by May. If Odo doesn’t walk the pitcher he stays in the game, and you’ve wasted Rogers.

And to repeat myself from another thread, every reliever in the pen will be asked to pitch high leverage spots. Some more than others, for sure, but there are too many close games to think any reliever won’t ever be in spots that will impact the game.

In this specific case, if you use Rogers for one out (which, again, means he was warming up before you decided you needed a reliever), you’re left with 12 outs to get.

I didn't say every time, I said this time. It's not very often that this high leverage of a spot will come up this early in a game. It might not happen again all season.

I also never implied that Vasquez should never see a high leverage situation. How about not his very first appearance though. These are not robots, they are humans, this was a tough first assignment of the year for a young guy with all of 5 career innings.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Mr. Brooks

ashbury · April 13, 2019

If Odo doesn’t walk the pitcher he stays in the game

Minor correction: the pitcher's spot was to lead off the Twins' sixth, so in a 1-0 game there might have been a pinch-hitter regardless, since it looked like our starter had run out of gas. Despite the one-hitter, that's what I'd have done, after an unsightly fifth that he had every likelihood (at that crucial moment) of staggering through unscored-upon.

If Odo doesn't walk the pitcher but instead records that third out, he's done, but has his Quality Start, and the manager can proceed with his game plan. (Which probably included Perez coming in next, so maybe a loss was in the cards anyway.)

No manager's game plan includes "what if my guy walks the pitcher when the chips are down."

Otto von Ballpark · April 13, 2019

If Odo doesn't walk the pitcher but instead records that third out, he's done, but has his Quality Start

FWIW, when the Mets pitcher came up to bat, there was only 1 out, and after consecutive walks, he probably wasn't going to swing the bat to make a DP possible. So at that point, the Twins had to assume the top of the order was going to come up with runners on base that inning, and could make their reliever warm-up decisions accordingly. (McNeil made the second out of the inning on the bases during the pitcher's at-bat.)

Also, an official Quality Start™ requires 6 innings, not 5.

ashbury · April 13, 2019

FWIW, when the Mets pitcher came up to bat, there was only 1 out, and after consecutive walks, he probably wasn't going to swing the bat to make a DP possible. So at that point, the Twins had to assume the top of the order was going to come up with runners on base that inning, and could make their reliever warm-up decisions accordingly. (McNeil made the second out of the inning on the bases during the pitcher's at-bat.)

Also, an official Quality Start™ requires 6 innings, not 5.

Crap, I forgot the baserunning gaffe and how it factored in.

Except for facts, my post was spot-on.

USAFChief · April 13, 2019

None of which makes me think Rogers should have been warming up in the fifth inning.

Kelly Vance · April 13, 2019

I dunno what the right call was. Major league pitchers should be able to get an out.

When I coached my players bailed me out a few times when I made a wrong call. It didn't happen here.

Odo had it going well, then he lost it. That is a repeated theme. Still, a 1 hitter through 4 innings should inspire some faith. I don't have a problem with the call for Vasquez. It didn't work out. Too bad we had to wait so long for the next game. Too much time with a bad taste in our mouth. And as fun as the laugher was to watch, this was wayyyy painful.

But we play 162 games. Time to turn the page and forgive a little. Coach and Odo and Vasquez were all trying to win. Hope they do better next time.

Riverbrian · April 13, 2019

Minor correction: the pitcher's spot was to lead off the Twins' sixth, so in a 1-0 game there might have been a pinch-hitter regardless, since it looked like our starter had run out of gas. Despite the one-hitter, that's what I'd have done, after an unsightly fifth that he had every likelihood (at that crucial moment) of staggering through unscored-upon.

If Odo doesn't walk the pitcher but instead records that third out, he's done, but has his Quality Start, and the manager can proceed with his game plan. (Which probably included Perez coming in next, so maybe a loss was in the cards anyway.)

No manager's game plan includes "what if my guy walks the pitcher when the chips are down."

Yep... Odorizzi was most likely done regardless.

Not responding to you directly or anyone directly... just in general to join in the discussion: There is no rule that states that Taylor Rogers had to be pinch hit for leading off the 6th. Meaning Rogers could have pitched the 6th and the 7th after he retired that single batter in the 5th that Vazquez didn't.

1-0 lead with the bases loaded and a starter that has to be pulled in the 5th. That's when you call on Rogers, the inning doesn't matter. Count me in the group that thinks Baldelli made a mistake with his bullpen choice that particular moment. But... I've already forgiven and I assume it won't be the last mistake he makes.

I have no complaints to register.

Hosken Bombo Disco · April 13, 2019

What we saw Wednesday is why I am opposed to the 3 batter minimum rule. I wasn’t necessarily opposed to bringing in Vasquez (as said above, anyone in the bullpen should be able to get outs), but after a couple of pitches it was apparent that Vasquez had the baseball equivalent of “happy feet” and didn’t belong in the game.

In hindsight I like the idea of a double switch and starting the inning with Perez. But can’t really argue with leaving in Odorizzi either. Turned into an entertaining inning!

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NYM 9, MIN 6: Forever of a 5th Inning

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