KirbyDome89

I'm not certain it's fair, no matter what kind of results are delivered, to measure the FOs enlightenment based on either of these two.

No quibble here; for what the Twins paid, Odorizzi is worth the risk. I don't think he's near the pitcher others are convinced he is, but this is a better move than signing Sanchez. Baby steps.....

You're right, a lot of this is beating a dead horse, but I do want to clear a couple things up. 1. Priority simply means greater importance or precedence, I'm not sure what other interpretations there are. I haven't heard many claim it was a "promise," to sign Darvish, but if that exists in the threads then it's an extreme minority. You're conflating the absence of a signing with the effort made to procure the signing when talking about the feelings of disappointment on the boards. Nobody would have bet on the Twins winning the Darvish sweepstakes; the issue wasn't that they didn't win the bidding. They labeled Darvish as one of the most important parts of the offseason, a notion that was reiterated throughout the winter. The FO certainly sparked the Darvish fire, and they stoked it all offseason. Those articles and quotes had to come from somewhere.It wasn't the media fabricating the continued interest. The problem is with what they said vs. their actions. If MN had made the best offer, or at least something competitive then I could see hanging your hat in the Twins corner, but they failed to even come close to a moderate (and very beatable) bid by Chicago. It really makes you wonder what their actual priority was, and how serious they were about pursuing Darvish. 2. It doesn't matter when or if the market for Darvish "popped." Whether the Twins offer was low from the get go or not isn't important either. They failed to beat a deal that was significantly lower than what Darvish was projected to sign for. They had to know those projections entering the offseason while they exclaimed how serious they were about signing him. Nobody is faulting them for submitting an initial bid lower than 6/160 or 6/126. The angst is because they didn't want to move off 100ish/5. 3. No, none of us are privy to all the details involving negotiations, nor are we likely to hear the "narrative," from the Twins side. I just don't see those as any sort of defense. We have the outcome. The Twins can release whatever press statements they want to fill in some gaps but in the end we know what offer they were unwilling to beat. 4. I have to give you credit for holding your position. It certainly isn't easy right now.

He hasn't been good for years so unless the Twins have discovered a time machine, I'm not sure I see what upside Sanchez has. It isn't that I'm high on anybody you mentioned, it's that I'm down on Sanchez. He has proven for 2 years now that he isn't a major league pitcher. You're not wrong that that anybody you listed is a backend guy at best, but I think Jorge, Enns, and Slegers can at least give you what Sanchez has the past few years and if nothing else they haven't demonstrated that their arrow is clearly pointing down. If you want to argue that Kinley will be the odd man out I'm fine with that. I don't think either one of them should be on the roster but I think Sanchez has the better chance of being cut loose soonest.

I've seen plenty of posters, myself included, question how serious the Twins were about adding Darvish, which IMO is akin to questioning their honesty. They labeled the guy a "priority," and continued to push the narrative that they were pursuing him throughout the offseason. Then they failed to make an even remotely competitive offer. MN knew what Darvish was projected to command going into the offseason yet they failed to come close to the winning offer which was significantly less than that projection. $100 M/ 5 years is a joke, and it wasn't even a ballpark offer in a depressed market. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they knew from the get go that they didn't have a shot at Darvish if that was the best offer they could make. Unless the FO is absolutely incompetent and thought 5/100 was going to get it done, it's hard to look at what they said vs. what they did and interpret it as anything other than misleading.

Roster spots are valuable, hence the knashing of teeth when a guy like Kinley clogs up the 25 man or Anibal Sanchez inexplicably is given a 40 man spot. It isn't hard to argue that the arm(s) they expose in the event of another signing(s) are more likely to help than Sanchez. The Twins are a team that operates on the fringes. They've made that abundantly clear this offseason. It follows then that fringe moves carry greater importance.

If he wouldn't sign a minor league deal then wish him good luck finding a major league contract elsewhere. NOBODY was going to question why the Twins wouldn't budge from that position to bring in Anibal Sanchez.

Thats a great point. If they have so little confidence in those guys and another move is coming then what the hell are they waiting on at this point? If this is it, or they're trying to scrape together another 1 year deal then, well.....

Given the apparent paralysis the FO experiences when the time comes to make anything other than minor moves I think we're safe.

I'm not sure why this FO is still getting credit for "being patient." If "patient," is redefined to mean excessive frugality to the point of harming the team I'll give credit where it's due. I was all for trading Dozier last offseason, but they didn't. Holding onto Dozier is a win-now move. I didn't think MN was close to that point, but I was wrong and essentially every member of the young core took strides forward last season. The FO got a lot of credit for feeling out the organization and having the foresight to hold onto Dozier and/or Santana, although I do question how much of those decisions was foresight and how much was simply an unwillingness to walk in and blow things up. Either way, it worked out last year, but they haven't done anything to address their most significant need in either of the last two off seasons. That doesn't mesh with the win-now theme. Refusing to sign front end FA pitchers to long term deals, no matter how desperate the need, means they're counting on prospects to fill in the gaping holes on the roster. That isn't going to happen within the next year or possibly two, so as of now it looks like they're more focused on the future. That runs opposite of the message sent all last offseason. The trade deadline was a microcosm of these last few off seasons; flipping back and forth, a lack of significant transactions to push the club in any discernible direction, and ultimately a team that suffers for it. These moves, or lack thereof, are the same half measures that everybody is tired of, except this time they're on a larger scale.

I hope he's back. I don't think Vargas is any sort of long term solution, and if the interest in Napoli is any indication it doesn't look like the FO sees him in that role either. I'm excited about Rooker but he also hasn't seen a pitch at AA yet, and as far as I know he's still capable of holding down a corner OF spot. If Mauer is on the roster Rooker could still be a great RH platoon 4th OF/DH bat which the Twins currently need. I wouldn't let Mauer go because Sano has to eventually slide to 1B. If Miguel shows he can't handle 3B this season and Mauer has another good year it doesn't make any sense to hurt your defense (Sano at 1B) and potentially your offense (depending on who replaces Mauer's bat) when Sano could just as easily slide into the full time DH role. Granted, there are a lot of "ifs," in that scenario but it isn't inconceivable that Sano struggles defensively and Mauer has another good season further removed from the concussions. If last season was Mauer digging his way out that concussion black hole he could be extremely valuable for the next few years. Admittedly I'm a fan. He has the plate discipline and swing that can play well even as he continues to age. The guy is a professional hitter and a great defender. It would be nice if he was a Twin for life.

There's no doubt that they need improvement in both drafting and developing arms. A team like Tampa has consistently drafted and developed high level pitching. I think that's a much more sustainable model to emulate rather than signing or trading for guys like Carpenter or Jake Arrieta. Don't get me wrong, all teams should be looking for that diamond in the rough, but I think the other pitchers you listed (Martinez and Reyes) are better examples of the drafting/developing prowess of St. Louis.

Carpenter won a Cy Young and finished 2 or 3 in a few other seasons. To me that isn't an example of mediocrity. I agree that St. Louis has definitely been better at identifying talent and developing it, but coaching can only take you so far.

I still understand why "an offer," is better than no offer but holy s*** Falvey and Levine had to cringe submitting $100 M / 5. That's just embarrassingly low. I know that the plus sign in the original reported offer was always expected to be closer to $100 M than $120 M but hearing that it really was only $100 M just makes it worse. “It’s got to be a deal that makes sense,” Pohlad said. “We kind of know where we would be willing to be, but that doesn’t mean that’s where Yu is.” I guess now we know that "makes sense," means fewer years and significantly less money. I dread to see what trades also "make sense."

No disagreement about the offense being a letdown in the postseason. I'm giving them a little more rope because it's typically more difficult for offenses to get the best of elite pitchers than vice vera but you're right those were poor team performances all around. Their more recent signings (Ervin, Hughes before the extension) and possibly Cobb or Lynn are definitely a notch above. If we're choosing between a guys like that or a steady stream of 1 year lotto tickets for the next few seasons then I'm pulling the trigger on Cobb or Lynn. I just think the Twins can do better.

2010 they gave up nearly 6 runs a game 2009 they gave up nearly 5 runs a game 2006 they gave up 13 runs in the two games Johan didn't pitch Not many offenses can compensate for that kind of pitching. I'm not saying the lack of playoff success is entirely the fault of the pitching staff, but against elite level pitching offenses are going to have 2 or 3 run games. I would love it if MN had some young arms with elite potential. It's certainly more cost efficient and less risky than spending in FA, but the reality is the Twins have failed in that area for a while now, so their options are limited at the moment. Yes, teams that can grow elite pitching leave themselves with financial resources to commit elsewhere but in that group of teams mentioned earlier many have made big signings or trades.

Having an elite pitcher doesn't preclude the Twins from filling out the rest of the rotation with back end guys (I'm not sure how else to interpret "balanced.") Those type of pitchers can't match up with what Boston, NY, Houston, Cleveland, LA, or even Seattle is going to run out in first few games of a series. The Twins horrific postseason record the last decade + would suggest it's going to take more than 3-5 range starters to go anywhere in October.

I'm not defending the offer MN made. I'm as disappointed by it as anybody, and I think we're right to question how serious the team was about Darvish given what he signed for, the subsequent comments from the FO, the offer they made, ect. That said, speaking strictly from a PR standpoint, I understand why they made the offer, even though I agree with you that they knew there was no chance it was going to be accepted.

But we're ok with pretending that talent won't win out?

Fair enough. The negative response to the Twins not beating an offer they could've or should've is certainly better than the backlash they would've received for not even making an offer.

This is an honest question. If they had moved on from Darvish weeks ago, why did they submit an offer just a few days back? If they had essentially bowed out, I'm guessing it was because they thought Darvish was getting that 6th year and/or the opt out, or their price limit had been exceeded, and they weren't willing to match. So why come back later and offer $100+ M / 5? They would've had to know at that point that their offer wasn't going to get it done, right? If it was a "nothing to lose, lets just take a shot," move then I guess in that sense they're right. Nobody is questioning the Twin's interest in Darvish, they were vocal about going after him. There is no doubt they were legitimately beaten in their pursuit either. The questions raised have to do with how serious they were about making an offer that would entice Darvish.

Including Castro in the bag was tongue in cheek. Agreed on the rotation and bullpen though.

Throw Castro in the bag too. Admittedly I'm jaded, he's adequate as a catcher, but if I have to read one more comment or article overhyping pitch framing....

The circle is complete.

Don't forget the veteran leadership he provides. He's basically a steal at that price.