KirbyDome89

I'm not sure if it's selective understanding, reading, or some combination of both at play here. Again, I've already stated what I thought this team could've done prior to the beginning of last season to compete within the division. Salary numbers and names are irrelevant. We're dealing in hypothetical scenarios here. Your insistence on "specifics," is a straw man. It doesn't invalidate any part of how those weaknesses could've been addressed. Like I said before, if you need names feel free to dig through 40 man rosters and to find a 4th OFer, C, and a few bullpen arms. It's comical that you're demanding "specificity," from others and at the same time your solution is "draft like Houston and trade for talent like Cleveland." It's no secret that the Twins aren't on the level of Houston, Boston, or NY. It wasn't that long ago that Buxton and Sano headlined a farm system that was one of, if not the best, in baseball. We've seen firsthand how inconsistent prospect development can be. Why should this team rely solely on Royce Lewis & co. to all hit the ground running a few years from now? I'll also reiterate, in the hopes that this time it sinks in, that none of what I suggested the Twins do prior to the season would've required giving up high level prospects. Those teams you listed above didn't get better by simply waiting for prospects to reach the major league level. They all moved young players for proven talent. Part of getting to that "stratosphere," requires making similar moves. If it bothers you that posters question decisions made by the Twins organization then a forum probably isn't the best place to frequent.

Sure, as long as the Wolves are willing to forego a high draft choice or another young player with potential as part of the deal. My point is that MN is asking for too much and it's unlikely anybody gives the Wolves everything they want. In that case they need to prioritize what's most important to them. Do they want younger players and draft compensation, or do they want a few solid veterans and to rid themselves of Dieng's contract?

Berrios, Rosario and Polanco don't look promising? Kepler doesn't look like he can be a solid corner OFer? Have you thrown in the towel on Buxton and Sano? Some of those names might be included in trade packages, and others might fall off, but right now that's a good group of young, cost controlled players to add pieces too. I missed the posts calling the entire roster a disaster. There certainly are holes and some are more glaring than others. FWIW Dozier finished 11th on the team in fWAR, behind Polanco, Garver, and Cave.... All of those players were highly regarded minor leaguers at one point. If the Twins are never willing to "trade key assets," then you're asking them to hit on an unreasonably high number of draft picks all within a few years of each other in order to field a team capable of competing. I'll pass on those odds. Just stop for a moment and consider what you're saying. Moving marginal prospects to solidify backup OF and C positions as well as adding better bullpen arms is "fantasy baseball," but "draft like Houston," "trade for a Kluber & Carrasco while they're in the minors," and "trade for a pitcher like Verlander," is somehow practical? One can be reasonably accomplished, the other is a pipe dream.

**Aren't devoid of good players

Naw, I've reiterated what I would've done to strengthen the team ad nauseam. Whether you choose to acknowledge that is up to you. It's obviously not impossible, but if you're expecting to match Cleveland's success my guess is you'll be sorely disappointed. No, what I want is for the current talent on the major league roster to be supplemented with other high quality major league talent. The Twins are devoid of good players; the organization is wasting cost controlled years of the current core if they aren't actively trying to get better. Chief already pointed out that there's literally no reason the FO can't be implementing their own processes while simultaneously adding to this roster. I understand that the poor results are a lack of production that starts with the FO and moves all the way down to the playing field. Part of the solution to the problem is filling in holes with individuals better suited to produce positive results, hence the new manager and likely (hopefully) other new faces on the field.

That's kind of the catch .22 here. If the Wolves are forcing another team to take on Dieng's contract (a negative asset) they're going to diminish their own return. IMO Whiteside is an all around a worse player than Dieng. He might have a few sexy blocks over the course of a season but the guy wanders outside of the team's defensive concepts to hunt those blocks and ultimately hurts the team. As a player I like Dragic a little better than Teague but Idk how his score first mentality meshes with Wiggins & Towns. Honestly I think if the Wolves were only asking for 2 options from a list of a young player(s), a draft pick, and salary relief for Gorgui + Jimmy a deal would already be done. Thibs is overly greedy and/or purposely sabotaging negotiations at this point.

To be clear: Trade for a minor league pitcher who becomes a perennial Cy Young candidate. Sign a 17 year old from the Dominican who turns into an MVP candidate. Pick at or very near the top of multiple drafts and hit on guys like Bregman, Correa, Bauer, Springer Draft another Cy Young winner in the 7th round. Then when you've checked off all those boxes trade for a generational pitcher "like," Verlander. I don't see any specifics listed here, it's just unrealistic expectations.....

Meh, I think they could definitely build a package around Lewis and probably Kiriloff after the season he had. That isn't an ideal scenario by any stretch, but if opportunity arose I think the Twins have enough ammo to get a deal done.

Miami already has one of the highest payrolls in the league. If MN is adamant about dumping Gorgui they're going to have to take $$ back. Hopefully both sides get creative and/or a 3rd team enters the mix because Miami can't roster both Dieng and Whiteside.

The thing is, that need has arrived. Berrios, Sano, and co. are starting to reach arbitration so it's kind of s*** or get off the pot time in terms of what direction this team is going. They either need to commit to bringing in MLB ready talent around these guys or look to move some of them and reset. This organization can't keep treading water. I know you're not saying this, but there's this notion on TD that the Twins shouldn't be moving prospects until they're a winning team. I'm not sure how we can expect to build a consistent winner without acquiring proven MLB talent, especially when we've seen firsthand how hit & miss prospects can be.

If Garver was a true back up catcher why was he evenly splitting duties with a journeyman like Wilson? They clearly didn't trust Garver to catch a bulk of the games, yet they entered the season with him as the backup. Wade had 0 major league experience and Granite wasn't good in his limited MLB time. That isn't a duo you want to count as insurance. Pull up the 40 man rosters for every team and take your pick of names to find a backup catcher, a 4th OFer, and relief arms. I can throw out names, you'll quibble with those, and the carousel will continue to turn. You have your specific solution. Roster a backup catcher you trust to actually catch. Roster a 4th OFer who you can trust to play if your oft injured CF deals with injuries. If you don't trust any of the young arms in the minors then aim higher than an erratic 41 year old reliever, a washed up starter, a rule 5 pick, and waiver wire fodder to get you through the early part of the season. NONE of those moves are about bringing in great players and NONE of them require sending away elite talent. I'm not sure how addressing team needs and finishing .500 would be more of a disaster than the current state of the roster.

Shocker that Thibs dragging his feet is supposedly the only thing that prevented a deal being done earlier in the week. Hopefully Whiteside isn't being considered; that guy is a cancer both on and off the court.

FO acquisitions - Almost everybody they brought in flopped. There was plenty of criticism regarding the talent level of the players brought in at the time of the moves, and it wasn't just from me. Lack thereof - There was no 4th OFer. No trusted backup catcher. No trusted relief arms in AAA or AA. No team that's serious about contending is starting Ryan LaMarre for any extended amount of time, or playing Bobby Wilson for half a season, or awarding innings to David Hale, Tyler Kinley, and Phil Hughes before entertaining the idea of turning to arms in their own minor league system. I'm not blaming the organization for relying on Buxton and Sano; that's been the direction from the time each was drafted. Their regression played a big role in this mess as well, but the FO isn't teflon here. Ervin getting hurt was a bummer but every team deals with injuries. IMO we shouldn't shrug and give the FO a pass because they brought in some "guys." Aim above bargain level talent. Have a solid backup plan at important positions like CF, RP and C before the season starts. Addressing those needs doesn't require giving up elite talent.

I'd love to see Crawford at SS and Polanco at 2B. Nothing wrong with Iglesias but Crawford is one of my favorite players to watch.

Define contender. If: Lynn isn't atrocious for all of April Rodney doesn't lead baseball in blown saves Morrison isn't a fixture in the lineup despite being a black hole Ryan LaMarre isn't getting extended playing time in CF Addison Reed doesn't fall off a cliff Jake Odorizzi isn't the 17' version some of us feared he would be This team likely stays within striking distance of Cleveland. IMO contending for this team meant fighting for a playoff spot. If the goal was to match the level of a team like Houston this season that was never going to happen.

It's hard to hold the Randy Rosario decision against the Twins. There just isn't much room for a young lefty when you have to roster David Hale, Tyler Kinley, or Matt Belisle......

His flaws as a manager were certainly irritating. It felt like the season was building towards this, and I don't really have an issue with the move. That said, Molitor took more heat than he probably deserved, this season especially, and he was the scapegoat for organizational and personnel failings. Such is being a manager I suppose.

We can start with that presumed strength. I'm still firmly on the Buxton bandwagon, but he's dealt with injuries on a regular basis. The 4th OFer to start the season was Zach Granite. Not a great situation. I agree the bullpen could've been addressed in a more meaningful way. They brought in "guys," but Zach Duke and Fernando Rodney weren't going to push the pen forward. I was on board with the Reed signing and it hasn't worked out. Neither of those areas would've required giving up top prospects to plug the holes with better talent. As for the starting pitching, there were plenty of question marks surrounding both Lynn and Odorizzi when they were brought in. We found out first hand why. The Twins weren't limited to only FA pitchers, as evidenced by the trade for Odorizzi. Poor drafting and development has put the Twins in a situation where they either have to overpay for a front end starter or give up top prospects to acquire one. That's the reality of the pitching situation right now. I'm as excited as anybody for Kiriloff and Lewis, and I certainly would prefer that they stay in the system, but that would require this organization to spend real $$ to bring in another arm and I just don't have faith in them doing that.

I guess you didn't read it then....

You read the OP right? I mean you must've since you quoted it. The number of loses doesn't change the sentiment of that OP. It's a losing season.... I'm glad you can count though....

I guess I gave Thibs too much credit. I didn't have an issue with offering the extension and trying to make a run with Jimmy after what they gave up to bring him to MN, but if Butler made it clear to Thibs that he wasn't interested in sticking around then Thib's inaction all summer was beyond irresponsible. The whole "woo him back," thing is just sad.

Thibs knew well before the end of the summer that Butler didn't want to be there yet he decided to do nothing. He clearly refuses to accept the reality of the situation. Now he's making ridiculous counter offers. As infuriating as it is to watch this guy destroy what good the Wolves had going for them, I honestly have to ask wtf Taylor is doing in all of this. He gave Thibs the keys as coach/PBO and he's watching him drive the car off a cliff. Thibs hates young players, and anybody who isn't a former Bull. Now you're letting this short sighted monster's desire to potentially win a few more games (barring locker room issues) in 18' damage part of the future? If you have to tell other teams to ignore or bypass your PBO and deal directly with you because the PBO refuses to do what's best for the franchise then maybe it's time to let that PBO go. Just a thought...

Ok, 85+.... The point still stands.

People are pissing and moaning about FO criticism now, I don't think that has changed much. 5 years ago was supposedly the early stages of a rebuild. It's easier to accept 90+ losses during year 1 or 2 than it is during year 5 or 6.

FO acquisitions, and a lack thereof, contributed significantly to the overall poor performance.