Cap'n Piranha

Or maybe, just maybe, as hard as it is to believe, we did try to sign him, and he simply chose the Tigers over us.

I'm calling it now, Fien will give up at least one run in the 8th, forcing Perkins to get the save

Who was that guy pitching, and does Brian Duensing know someone stole his uniform?

Hunter took exception to Dozier's HBP. About 450 feet of exception.

If Lloyd Christmas is to be believed, only in Austria.

Less than you'd think, hence the pervasiveness of mule abuse. Sarah McLachlan has a series of ads coming out soon.

White Sox, Submariners, Ast-ho's, the Jays, Rays, and A's all offer a non-PC option, and of course, the Yankees.

In my opinion, Sano thought there would be a play at the plate, and wisely tried to take third. Detroits 1B made a somewhat questionable choice to concede the run, and was therefore able to get Miguel by a mile.

Happiness is... Discovering your Seattle-based cable provider has added FS1 HD to their base lineup at 9 AM the day of a 1 PM game.

In Soviet Russia, fork definitely sticks you.

Maybe bringing up Arcia, for no other reason than to sit on the bench and see how Sano conducts himself, would be beneficial.

I don't know about everyone else, but living in Seattle as I do, I can't wait for mlb to get those videos up.

I think Dozier is pissed about the final 5 thing.

i like where this is going. Giggity.

You're right, so sorry I didn't retract a statement I made that was erroneous. Feel better? Now, since you don't think ERA is a valid stat for measuring pitchers' performance, or age relative to the league for minor leaguers, what stat(s) are you using that tell you Rogers is no better than or worse than at least one pitcher in every organization? And while rebuilding teams don't always sell assets for pennies on the dollar, sometimes they do, particularly if they believe the pennies are dimes or quarters instead. Or Oakland, who traded the best third baseman in the league for an injury prone MI headed to arbitration, and three minor leaguers.

But at some point ability and performance become the same thing. Who cares if a player is the most able player to ever step on the diamond if he can't harness that ability and produce results? Put another way, if the Twins were playing a must win game tomorrow, and had to start either Rogers or Meyer, who would you choose? The fact that Rogers is doing something only a handful of other players are doing suggests we need to either rethink what organizational filler is, or rethink what Rogers is.

I'll admit, I don't know of one. On the other hand, can you name a team that was one of the 3 worst teams in the league heading into a full-blown rebuild with a closer close to vesting a $13m option? If not, maybe we can agree that the Papelbon situation is unique, and perhaps history won't completely dictate the outcome here. The thing that's great about baseball, is that new history is always being made. I don't think the Phillies are going to turn down a trade they want to do just because it's never been done before. Also, way to deflect on the Rogers comp when data proved your unfounded opinion of his relative ability wrong.

Ok, expand the ERA requirement to 5, you still only add 9 more pitchers, one of whom (Jon Gray) is certainly not getting traded, while only adding 4 more organizations. In other words, a full third of the league does not have a starting pitcher in AAA who is younger than 26 while sporting a sub 4 (sub 5 for the PCL) ERA. A far cry from "Every team in baseball has a pitcher in AAA of Rogers quality or better".

Of course they can. I was simply pointing out that 24 year-olds with sub 4 ERA's in AAA don't grow on trees, as you posited. Therefore, if the Phillies want young, competent, near ML-ready starting pitching in return for Papelbon, they're almost certainly going to have to go throughus or the Tigers.

I think the Cubs are at least optimistic about Rondon's 2.69 FIP, 4/1 k/BB ratio, and .203 BAA.

Actually, there aren't that many teams who can give up a Rogers-type pitcher. Of qualified AAA pitchers, there are only 26 pitchers 26 or under with a sub-4 ERA. Of those, only 11 are 24 or under. And those 26 pitchers are controlled by only 16 teams, so half the league cannot give up a Rogers. Just as important, many of the teams who CAN give up a Rogers-type, WOULDN'T give up that pitcher, especially not for Papelbon. Atlanta isn't giving up Banuelos.Baltimore isn't giving up Davies, and while they might part ways with Wilson or Jones, the O's bullpen is badass, so why give up young pitching for old?Boston isn't giving up Owens or JohnsonThe Cubs probably wouldn't give up Pimentel, and while they'd probably part with Roach, his k/9 is 3.4, so he's not too attractive of a targetThe Sox wouldn't want to give up Johnson for a half season rentalCleveland might give up Roth, but he's at 5.2 k/9KC might be willing to move Lamb or Brooks, but why would they look for bullpen help?Miami isn't moving Conley or RienzoMilwaukee isn't moving CravyThe Mets aren't giving up MatzThe Pirates might be interested in moving Boscan, but he's at 6k/9 and 4bb/9, and I doubt they'd want to give up SampsonSeattle isn't giving up Nicolino or Snow, especially for bullpen help, given their solid, cheap bullpenThe Cardinals might be ok giving up Cooney and Petrick, but they have 6.4 k/9 and 5.8 k/9 respectively, and since their bullpen is solid, they might decide to pass on making a trade if it costs them young startersThe Rangers probably aren't giving up Ranaudo.That leaves 3 pitchers, 26 or under with sub 4 ERA's, controlled by teams who would realistically trade them for bullpen help. The Tigers could trade Farmer, the Twins could trade Rogers, and the last pitcher from that list is... Rochester's own, Pat Dean

Every team might have a pitcher of Rogers' caliber in AAA (I don't think they do, but that's a different argument), but how many of them are willing to give up a 24 year old AAA starter? That's where the Twins advantage is--they can offer the Phillies immediate help that is also cheap, and subject to lots of team control.

This is the same Gilmartin who currently has a 3.23 FIP with the Mets in his first taste of the bigs right? TR fleeced the Braves in that one, and I fail to see why a rebuilding team wouldn't be interested in flipping an unnecessary bullpen piece for a potential lefty starter, especially an NL team. Are you telling me, if you were the GM of the Phillies, you wouldn't be ecstatic to add a 24 year old putting up a 3.27 FIP as a starter in AAA for a closer you have zero need for, and who is about 2 months away from costing you 13 million dollars for next year?

When I said more expensive I was referring to salary, not acquisition cost. That being said, yes, it would take more to acquire all those players, because they're better. For Ramos and the Smiths, offer Rogers. He offers 6 years of control, also at league minimum, and is a starter. For teams out of the race, like the Marlins, Brewers, and Mariners are, that's a trade they'll make. Atlanta would probably also take Rogers for Grilli, since Grilli is 38, and a closer is completely unnecessary on a non-contending team. Ditto Boston, who also could use additional starting pitching options. Papelbon is probably the most likely to be traded, as he only needs to finish 19 more games this year to vest his $13m salary for next year, which I assume the Phillies are not interested in. If they can pick up a lefty AAA starter, while ensuring they don't have to pay Papelbon next year, that's a win-win. It's good for the Twins too, as there's no way he finishes 19 games for us, thus we can either let him walk, or try to re-sign him, all for the price of a prospect who's unlikely to play much of a role for us ever.

When people (like you) say he's been damn good for several years, it's not at all ridiculous to point out the difference between what he used to be, and what he now is. I reference his career year to show that he's not what he used to be. If you don't want to argue about the past, then let's just argue about this year; do you really want to trade for a guy who's bottom quartile in FIP, strikes out less than 1/IP, walks more than 3/9, AND is only getting by on the back of a ridiculous BABIP? As for your proposed return for the other options, you are wildly overstating what a team who is honestly willing to trade a player would look for from a middle reliever. We got Milone for Fuld straight up, and Milone was far more valuable than a middle reliever. Here's some other deals that involved relief pitchers last year; The Orioles got Andrew Miller (who was/is a stud) for Eduardo Rodriguez, who was striking out 7.5/9 with a 3.5 FIP in AA. The Braves got James Russell AND Emilio Bonifacio for a catcher who was in his first full season of A ball The Tigers got Soria for Jake Thompson (who was released at the end of the year and is currently out of baseball), and Cory Knebel, who was walking 4.4/9 in AAA. All of those relievers had better numbers last year than Benoit does this year, and I would argue that the return was less than or equal to Taylor Rogers and a redundant prospect we could throw in if needed. Offer Rogers and say Vielma/Kanzler, and that should be enough to get any of the pitchers listed above.