gunnarthor

Again, we have this in a different thread and the moderators keep banning us because of it so maybe it should stay there. But the logical answer is that clubhouse behavior - in every sport - is treated differently. It's not even a debate. Maybe it shouldn't be so, maybe the Vikings and Twins and Gophers should be as professional as a legal office but that isn't the reality. And trying to argue that actions in one setting is unprofessional b/c it would be unprofessional in a different setting doesn't make sense. I just don't see the point of basically saying "he couldn't get away with that elsewhere." It is what it is. It's probably not right but it's not really worth arguing it doesn't exist. I mean, look at how society treats these guys. Phillip Nelson got drunk and nearly kills a guy and gets a three month plea deal and a 1K fine? That's the insane world we live in.

This is a huge stretch. And frankly, if you really feel that way, you should probably not support baseball b/c his views are not that out of line. People who I trust have met with Mauer and they say that he is the same on same-sex marriage. I marched in the pride parade when Kluwe was the MC of it (I posted invites on Twins Daily but I don't think a lot of people showed up) and we tried to get other local sports personalities involved. None did.

Actually, I think Beredino was the unprofessional one. He brought up a subject that had no bearing - Hunter's support for a candidate in AK - knowing very well that it would disrupt the press conference. Sure, he threw a pitch back at Danys Baez but it happened 13 years ago. Seems like a strange thing to keep coming back to. Interestingly, Baez actually came into the Twins dugout during the game to apologize to Hunter. Does it outweigh how he led the Angels after Adenhart's death, for example? At the end of the day, a lot of the anti-Hunter things seem pretty off color to me. What point are we trying to make? Is he "unprofessional" because of this? In what sense? Have any of his actions lowered his reputation in the clubhouse? I don't think so.

This is steering into a different discussion. There's a thread in the more baseball section on the unwritten rules of baseball where Levithan makes many of your points. I tend to disagree completely. (Also, it's battery, not assault)

ESPN just posted this. These are the projected win totals (keep in mind that Vegas sets the lines based on how it thinks the money will be spent, not necessarily a projection system although that might not matter as much in baseball). Anyhow, here's how it has the central. I'd probably take the over on MN, Det and Cleveland, under on KC and Chicago. AL Central DETROIT TIGERS 86½ KANSAS CITY ROYALS 83 CHICAGO WHITE SOX 82 CLEVELAND INDIANS 81 MINNESOTA TWINS 68½ The rest ARIZONA D'BACKS 72½ ATLANTA BRAVES 73½ BALTIMORE ORIOLES 84½ BOSTON RED SOX 86 CHICAGO CUBS 81½ CINCINNATI REDS 79 COLORADO ROCKIES 70½ HOUSTON ASTROS 73½ LOS ANGELES ANGELS 87½ LOS ANGELES DODGERS 91 MIAMI MARLINS 81½ MILWAUKEE BREWERS 80 NEW YORK METS 81 NEW YORK YANKEES 80 OAKLAND ATHLETICS 82½ PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES 67 PITTSBURGH PIRATES 85½ SAN DIEGO PADRES 84 SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS 85 SEATTLE MARINERS 85 ST LOUIS CARDINALS 87½ TAMPA BAY RAYS 77½ TEXAS RANGERS 76½ TORONTO BLUE JAYS 83½ WASHINGTON NATIONALS 93

Yep, it was awesome: "During a 10-8 implosion the next night in which starter C.J. Wilson was cuffed for seven earned runs in 4 2/3 innings, some players grew weary of Wilson's chirping in the dugout – especially when he began giving advice to hitters. Hunter sharply told him to pipe down and the two had words in the dugout. Immediately following that game, veteran reliever LaTroy Hawkins called for a players' only meeting. Word of the Hunter-Wilson altercation had reached the Angels' bullpen by the late innings, and Hawkins, a respected veteran then in his 18th season in the majors and now with the Mets, could identify major problems when he saw them. In a glimpse into how fractured the Angels had become, they could not even agree on a meeting format. Hawkins called for a players-only meeting. Pujols, insisting that manager Mike Scioscia and the coaches attend, wound up co-opting the meeting. Pujols called out Weaver for showing up a teammate the night before. Then he turned his attention on Hunter, blaming him for the dugout altercation with Wilson. What Pujols did not know at the time was that Wilson and Hunter already had made amends, with the pitcher apologizing to the outfielder for overstepping his bounds in the dugout immediately following the game. “Albert, you'd better get your facts straight,” a seething Hunter told Pujols. Pujols said something back, and Hunter jumped him for being a bad teammate and pouting all season whenever he failed to get hits in a game, even in games the Angels won … and now he was going to call others out? “Shut up, Torii,” Pujols snapped. It was then that Hunter, from across the clubhouse, lost it and charged Pujols. Hawkins and outfielder Vernon Wells had to restrain him. The meeting proceeded from there, and when it was over, tempers still heated, Hunter had to be physically held back a second time from going after Pujols, who is described as wanting no part of the fight. The incident was reminiscent of one in Minnesota earlier in Hunter's career, when an exasperated Hunter, in a heated discussion trying to teach Justin Morneau to be a better teammate, punched Morneau in the jaw. The two later bonded after that incident, and Morneau went on to win an AL MVP award and he became a long-tenured and beloved Twin. Hunter quickly became the spiritual leader of the Angels upon signing as a free agent before the 2008 season and remained so during his five years with the team. Among his peers, Hunter is known as one of the most popular players and best teammates in the league. But he will not hesitate to call out a teammate he thinks isn't living up to standards." I love crap like this. I know some people will call this unprofessional but I would disagree, I think Hunter's attitude is professional in a clubhouse setting. Either way, I'm very glad he's back.

Hopefully, with the way TF rewards RH power, he'll pull the ball a little bit more than he did last year and we get to see a lot of batflips.

You literally just said Hunter throws tantrums and acts unprofessional. I'm honestly not sure how to even follow that up that kind of speculating. As to the other, I told you that there were written reports about the fun bunch, which included Plouffe, not caring. I think the tenor of a lot of statements made this offseason by Molitor and others suggest that the team thinks the clubhouse needs an upgrade b/c of it. Marty Cordova admitted that while he was in the minors, if he didn't have an at-bat coming up in the 9th, he didn't care if his team won he'd just rather go home sooner. I don't think every player cares about winning or losing that much (and they all certainly don't care the same). Some do, some don't. Some are happy to get a paycheck to support their families. Others enjoy the lifestyle. When he was in the minors, Plouffe wrote a blog about his day and he ticked off a lot of fans b/c he spent a lot of time discussing video games. I believe this was on mlb.com's first site. Regardless, I do think every player works hard but some work a lot harder than others. And probably a lot more than you'd care to think are more concerned about individual success than team success. In any event, it does seem that the Twins are trying to change the clubhouse atmosphere either because they don't like what has been happening or b/c they want some good PR stories for their media friends.

It's probably about as fair as the attacks on Hunter have been in this thread. Lots of speculating and ignoring what is out there. Reusse did report on the fun bunch, which includes Plouffe, and the tone of comments made by Molitor and others does seem to suggest that the losing hasn't bothered players as much as it should have. Or, at least, that's what I've taken from a lot of this.

I don't really like Gleeman but it's a prospect list, so I'll read it.

If players didn't like him, it would leak out. Players constantly put Jeter on the overrated list while he was playing, for example. As I said earlier, he had three pretty respected managers - Leyland, Gardy and Sciosia - all sing his praise in the media. If they were blowing hot-air, it would have been a pretty good way to lose the clubhouse. And I suspect some of things he brings that you don't seem to care for are probably reasons the Twins want him in the locker room in the first place.

Yeah, that's my thought too. I wonder if he really wants into coaching? I could see the Twins giving him either a position or an informal instructor role after he retires. Frankly, I'd be stunned if they didn't offer him something like that.

I really find this to be pretty improbable. This really requires someone to think that Hunter has sucked up to a bunch of different reporters while no teammates have even anonymously called him out on it (or a belief that all reporters would bury that) and would require several ML managers - Leyland, Gardy, Sciosia - to specifically praise him for something that he doesn't do without then losing the clubhouse for it. Seems to me that it's much more likely that Hunter's outgoing personality and charisma has made him a very liked and respected player in the clubhouse.

Not really, he was top 5-7 in oWAR, wRC+ and wOBA among RFers (and above Arcia) and was better than the other RFers on the market. And even if you want to call his production average, it was better than what the Twins got out of their RFers. I don't think there's much argument that his bat shouldn't be a plus for us this year - unless he falls off a cliff, which could certainly happen. We've discussed the defensive issues elsewhere. No need to do so again.

Well, there's nothing concrete that we fans can see. We can go by the fact that guys in baseball have said great things about him, how he seemed to be in charge of those Angels teams (esp after Aidenhart's death) and how the Twins FO, who has some knowledge about him, thought he was a good teammate and brought him back.

Well, he is good at baseball, too. Last year he hit .286/.319/.446 - that's a 111 OPS+ which would have been behind Dozier and Santana. He played in 142 games - only Dozier topped that. Now it is possible for him to fall off the cliff offensively since he will be 39.

Who is Hunter blocking? Schafer?

Maybe the story angle, sure. (As will be the Mauer is going to rebound, Can anyone stop the Nats, ARod in NY stories and many more. ST is full of crappy stories like this). But Hunter seems like the type of guy who would make jokes even when the media isn't around to record it.

I think Alvarez is technically bound under the slotting system so teams that have already blown up the slot amounts could try and get him since they have already incurred the penalty or, if they sit it out since it's an 18 year old kid, the Twins could spend most of their pool to get him. I doubt that they would go over their pool though.

Mayo and Callis make the best top 100, IMHO. They both put together a sleeper list and Mayo included the Twins Lewis Thorpe. http://m.mets.mlb.com/news/article/108852054/jonathan-mayo-mets-pitcher-gabriel-ynoa-no-1-on-list-of-top-five-sleeper-prospects So Thorpe made the BP list and mlb.com likes him. Nice to see the national writers are taking notice of him.

Nice little bit from Reusse - "Torii Hunter showed up Tuesday for the informal, low-key workouts that a few major leaguers and a larger number of minor leaguers have been holding on mornings on the minor league fields. I was told by a civilian who is at those fields every day that within 15 minutes, Torii was off to the side, showing Kennys Vargas what he might doing wrong with his right-handed swing, and then he was with this minor leaguer and that minor leaguer. On Wednesday, Aaron Hicks joined the early arrivers in Fort Myers. Hunter and Hicks took batting practice, shagged fly balls and walked off the field together, stopping in the dugout to grab their bats. Hicks looked larger in the shoulders last season and he looks larger still now. I pointed toward Hicks and made a gesture to Hunter taking note of Hicks’ muscular upper body. “Steroids!’’ Hunter hollered. “I’m turning him in.’’ Hicks shook his head in a “I don’t believe this guy’’ manner and kept on collecting his lumber. And I had this immediate thought: As a very young player from the low minors, Hunter saw Kirby Puckett in action in a spring training clubhouse. And right then, he received a tutorial on clubhouse agitating from the best." Looks like Hunter is taking this mentoring thing seriously. At least it looks like it'll be a fun team. Wish I was going to ST this year.

No, he's be eligible. I think he made the top 10 in a few team lists but no top 100 anywhere. He's not really the type of guy to get on a list at this point (although he was ranked before). Sickels ranked him #7 on our list and called him a darkhorse ROY candidate.

Sarcasm aside, my guess is that prospect rankings - if you control for injuries - are probably more accurate over the long run than the standing projections. And obviously some rankings are probably more likely to succeed. Both Joe Benson and Carlos Correia were top 100 prospects but they weren't remotely the same. Additionally, I think prospect rankings probably have a better built in check system. That is, certain types of prospects are more likely to fail than others - guys in the low minors v. guys in the high minors, guys with bad walk to strikeout ratios, pitchers with bad control but high strike outs and guys with injury history. You start seeing that with ratings now where BA or BP or whomever will rank a prospect but also give a risk grade. Both projections will have built in biases - standing projections will be dependent on the numbers the system uses while the prospect rankings will be based on the views of different evaluators. Hence you see differences in how teams are projected to finish and why some prospects are ranked better by different guys.

Yeah, I've pointed this out before. The early 2000 Twins did have a few top 100 prospects on those teams (Hunter, Guzman, Rivas) but a lot of the key guys were never ranked - Radke, Koskie, Santana, AJ, Dougie Baseball, Jones etc. And the next Sano/Buxton (hopefully) nucleus will probably also have some good complementary players that weren't ever top 100 prospects - maybe Santana, Dozier, Vargas etc. So, yay, depth!

You seem to be putting a lot more faith in projected standings than you probably should. It's been a long time since I read about them, and maybe they've improved, but they aren't really that great. Usually someone will defend it by saying it got the standings right with 95% accuracy or some such. But that ignores that mostly everyone can successfully predict standings to a certain successful amount so their final percentage isn't that impressive. The last time I cared about this enough was in the mid-2000s when the Twins were constantly projected to finish below Chicago (and others). It irked me but I read something on Baseball Analysts that basically said to take projected standings with a huge grain of salt and haven't really cared about ZIPS and others since. I randomly looked at PETCOA projections for one year and found the 2011 AL East and AL central. The projections were: Boston 92 NYY 91 Rays 84 Balt 82 Tor 76 The final standings were: NYY - 97 (off by 6) Rays - 91 (off by 7) Boston - 90 (off by 1) Tor - 81 (off by 5) Balt - 69 (off by 13) For the Central is was Det - 83 MN - 83 CHI - 82 Cle - 74 KC - 68 And the final standings were: Det - 95 (off by 12) Cle - 80 (off by 6) Chi - 79 (off by 3) KC - 71 (off by 3) MN - 63 (off by 20) So that's about a 7 game error and big misses in final standing order. My guess is that you'll see that that is pretty common for most projection systems.