NYCTK

You're right, I think I did, going back to Tong, but I too think you missed my point with that message. I would agree with you that pitching isn't really the priority in a return. That's why I mentioned Benge as well. Most of the comments I've been making here are in response about McLean and Tong. As a Mets fan I have a larger knowledge about the Mets Farm System than probably anyone else here, so I'm just sharing that information. You can say this about literally any prospect outside the top 10, which I will repeat that the Twins are not getting in return for Joe Ryan. I'm coming at this from a unique angle, since I'm a fan of both the Twins and the Mets, want what's good and fair for both, and have pretty good knowledge about most prospects in both systems. I would disagree with you and suggest the Mets actually do have quite a few players performing well in the high minors that would be MLB contributors with the Twins, given the Twins organizational depth chart and farm system strengths: Jett Williams - SS/2B/CF - AAA - 50 FV - would slot in as the Twins #2 prospect, a fair bit better SS prospect than Culpepper, a year younger, ending the season in AAA but with iffy results there. could likely stick at SS in a system without Lindor, but Houston could also move him to 2B or an OF position, as the team sees a need Jacob Reimer - 3B/1B - AA - 50 FV - would likely slot in as the Twins #5 prospect behind Rodriguez. well rounded hitter but the question is his glove and if it will be competent enough for MLB. if it is, he's a very good prospect, but if it isn't he could be a Ryan Mountcastle type player. would instantly be the best prospect at either 3B or 1B in the Twins system. Ryan Clifford - 1B/DH - AAA - 45 FV - looks like he might be Matt Wallner, for better or worse. I didn't like him much as a prospect but then he significantly cut down his K rate last season which has elevated his stock and might be a good sign. his defense in the OF is probably on par with Wallner, but unlike him seems to be quite a competent 1B. Chris Suero - C/DH - AA - 40 FV - another fun bat with questionable defense. doubtful he sticks at C longterm and probably doesn't make it to the majors if he doesn't Not to mention the likes of Mark Vientos, Ronny Mauricio, and Luisangel Acuna. Nor the RP they need to roster on their 40-man that would instantly slot into the Twins bullpen. All this to say, I could very easily envision a trade being agreed to between the teams fully ignoring the Mets system strength in their SP and their top 10 OF prospects. And now that I spent so much time thinking about it, I want to actually see it.

Sure, but I'll just repeat that there's going to be a fair amount of power rankings and projection systems that put McLean ahead of Joe Ryan. BTW, over that span where unproven McLean was light's out over his first 48 IP with a 2.97 FIP / 2.06 ERA, the MLB proven Joe Ryan's last 49.2 IP showed him with a 5.01 FIP / 4.89 ERA. There isn't a single team in baseball that would trade Nolan McLean for Joe Ryan. And I'm not being even a bit hyperbolic. Anyone insisting on a prospect of McLean's caliber in return for Joe Ryan isn't being even close to realistic.

Yeah. There are a lot of vet pitchers available on the trade market this offseason. Which is why Ryan is not brining back anyone anywhere near McLean (or Benge) as a return. Maybe it is for the best they hold him and shop him later.

I'm not retired, so no. As for pitching in front of bad defenses, that's why people look to FIP stats. Jonah Tongs results are otherworldly. Jonah Tong is better than any Twins pitching prospect, and IMO would instantly be the Twins #2 prospect. His trade value eclipses any Twins pitcher except for Ryan or Lopez. He'd be a good top of the package return for Joe Ryan. He may not be the best prospect the Twins could hope to return in such a trade, but he'd be pretty close.

I think you're overeating the internal. Tong, for example, would slot in ahead of everyone everyone except Bradley maybe? He's higher than Abel, Rojas, or even Festa or Matthews, in terms of upside potential. 21 year old minor league pitcher of the year. This is still a project, but far enough along the Mets debuted him, albeit reluctantly, in the middle of a playoff race.

I want to be clear, I don't even mean this as a criticism of him. There are plenty of valuable major league players without a very good hit tool. Some Hall Of Famers even. Just saying Winokur is not anywhere near a 5 tool player. 5 tool player is a huge compliment because it's rare. If you had to identify some Twins prospects that could be described as 5 tool, it'd probably only be Jenkins and Culpepper. And a lot of people might say that don't even come close to that designation.

Words have meaning guys. If he's striking out in a quarter of his PAs he's not showing a great hit tool, so he cannot be called five tool. He can improve it, but his tool is bad right now. And just checking, Fangraphs has his hit tool currently as a 20 grade.

Carl sucked. He was a bad person. We needn't celebrate him just because he bought an entertainment organization that we like, and that ended up making his family a billion dollars. He was way more concerned with the latter. He didn't save the Twins out of the goodness of his heart.

Ryan was 80-100 ranked prospect in the various rankings in 2020 and again in 2022. Makes sense, his 2021 minor league season was really impressive stuff.

I actually hope they do keep him and I actually thought they would. I like one team players. But they are reportedly $250 Million apart in negotiations. That doesn't bode well. I can't even imagine how much either the Tigers are lowballing him ($200 Million?) or Boras is starting large ($600 Million?) for that to even be possible. Skubal is going to get at least $400 million. Will the Tigers pay it?

But that then begs the question, if the demands are entirely unreasonable, how do we hope to ever improve the Twins?

As an aside, I was fortunate enough to be in attendance for both McLean's and Tong's MLB debuts. Tong is such a fun, quirky dude. Still don't know that he'll be any good, but the 21 year old goofball was definitely a fan favorite, so I'd still be sad to see him go.

Well then there will be no discussion. There is absolutely no way McLean is traded for Ryan.

I completely disagree with you. The Mets are one of the only teams that DOES have the upside (McLean, Benge) that would be required to trade for Skubal. And they can add depth to the trade as the Tigers see fit. The Mets would trade McLean for Skubal. And Tong. And Sproat. And they would trade Manaea, or Senga, or nearly any of their other pitchers, with their salary, in order to get Skubal. Like you said, what constitutes an ace is debatable, but there's no debate that the two best pitchers in baseball are Skubal and Skenes. So the bidding war for one of the true aces is going to be fun to watch.

Tong is really interesting because he's not good enough right now. He needs to develop a third pitch he can rely on, cause currently he's just a really great fastball and a pretty good changeup. And that's just not good enough for the majors. If he fails to develop a third pitch he might turn into a pretty great reliever but that's obviously not the outcome you want for the minor league pitcher of the year.

The thing is, so is Nolan McLean at this point. In fact, I can promise you a fair amount of 2026 power rankings and projection systems will have McLean ahead of Ryan. We all like Ryan, but the Mets are not trading McLean for Ryan. Anyone still proposing this is just wasting everyone's time. Tong or Sproat are on the table, as are a slew of other pitching prospects in the Mets Pitching Pipeline - Santucci, Wenninger, Watson, Thornton. If you see a headline that McLean has been traded, it's bad news because it was for Skubal and the Twins will be facing him for the next 5 seasons.

I'm not gonna excoriate someone for a bad joke, but it's especially unfunny in a week where a bunch of 20-30 something republican staffers are outed as, essentially, nazis.

Anyone asking for McLean or Alvarez is being ridiculous. They aren't being traded for someone that isn't a bona fide ace. I don't think Benge is necessarily untouchable, but Stearns is a big system guy and I don't think he trades him either, but it's a fair ask. It is entirely reasonable that Mets would offer: Jett, Mauricio/Vientos, Sproat/Tong, and then further prospects like Suero, Reimer or Clifford. That's still a big haul, but understandable if the Twins say it's not enough. One further thing to consider is that it looks like Skubal might also be on the market. And I can imagine the Mets being one of the top bidders for him first. Ryan being an after thought.

Sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I was just responding to the argument. Kind of, but he was so bad at the beginning of the season, it kind of proves me wrong. Split by approximate quarter seasons to avoid intentional cherry picking. 1st quarter: 540 OPS 2nd quarter: 810 OPS 3rd quarter: 640 OPS 4th quarter: 690 OPS So, he had a real hot stretch in the middle of the season (957 OPS over 103 PAs) but otherwise he was pretty bad generally speaking. I am happier with him now than I was in April because he did appear to make actual improvement on defense. But I just don't like him, as a player. Here's hoping he can prove me wrong.

He's the type of player that has value with options, and very little when they're exhausted. But, at the same time Kike Hernandez has stayed on the most stacked roster in the majors for a while now, despite being a 640 OPS guy. That's basically his best case scenario.

Ok, first, that's not great. If you're cherry picking a significantly large timeline and still can't get him to above an 800 OPS, that's not great! For example, Trevor Larnach had an 850 OPS from April 13 - May 19 and an 880 OPS from July 30 - Sept 4th! And, secondly, we can also say he hit .231 / .267 / .395 from Aug 1 to the end of the season. He was bad.

Grrrr. I hate when my boss tells me to do something within the purview of my job description at the job I am extremely fortunate to have. One can easily understand why he complained to the media about this egregious mistreatment.

Torii Hunter as manager would be difficult and make me uncomfortable.

First paragraph was direct response to you, second paragraph was a general addition to the conversation. No strawman crafted nor intended to be read, as there are quite obviously others here who think the trade was terrible. And those people are, obviously, wrong.

I don't have to find a single person to prove you're still clearly wrong. Which you are.