ThePuck

I provided information from the Twins News site concerning one part the list. That's all I did. I never said everything the original poster wrote was true, I just felt that one part was true based on what I had read and I shared the info I had. If you feel, after reading that, that Gardy didn't have a big hand in Hardy being moved, fine; however, assuming I was exaggerating, lying or whatever, that's crap.

Why is everyone so eager to jump on someone around here...hold carp. All I did was provide some info to suggest Gardy did have quite a bit to say about Hardy being traded. Does what I provided suggest he did? Isn't the point of disccsuion an attempt to get to the truth, or is it more important to be right?

Gardenhire reiterated what he and Smith have continually said this winter in that Casilla will get an opportunity to compete for one of the starting middle-infield jobs, even if Hardy remains in the mix. And while Casilla can also play both positions, Gardenhire indicated that he prefers him at shortstop. "I have always said, for me, I think he moved really well at shortstop," Gardenhire said, "I think he's very acrobatic. I think he's very athletic. He can go get the ball and throw from all kinds of angles. I think he's comfortable coming in and getting the ball rather than waiting on it.'' 'The Twins have said throughout the offseason that one of their goals has been to add speed to their lineup, and the one area where they felt they could do that was in the middle infield. ' In speaking about the trade yesterday general manager Bill Smith made it very clear that the move was made largely because Ron Gardenhire wants to add more speed to the lineup and Hardy, despite his excellent range defensively, is one of the slowest shortstops in baseball.

What free agent pitchers did the Twins go after when they were contenders? Blowing more smoke? Kevin Slowey 13-6, Pavano 17-10, Baker 12-9. Liriano the potential ace, Blackburn under contract. I did not hear a whole lot of complaining about that rotation's end result. Nobody complained going into 2011 they were cheap with the payroll Puck the troll Ah, now I'm a troll...awesome...

The truth is somewhere in the middle...I have criticized him on some things and I have defended him on others...case by case basis

The truth is somewhere in the middle...

No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to. It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better. All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis. Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team. In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me. Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades. I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining. Yeah, my idea that a reason we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency is because maybe sometimes we haven't offered the most money isn't an idea based on reality. I mean, it's crazy to believe maybe we have lost out on some top notch FA pitching due to not offering the most money. I get it. I don't have any proof that maybe a pitcher or two decided 'hey, I'll go where I'm offered the most money.' and by signing elsewhere, that means we didn't offer the most money. I'm just loopy to think money might be a factor in a pitchers decision on where to sign. AND I NEVER SAID THE TWINS LOST OUT ON FA PITCHING EVERY TIME BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T OFFER THE MOST MONEY. I said sometime maybe money was the reason. Oh, and you know, I didn't discount anyone else's ideas as to why we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency as 'stupid' either...there's a lot of factors....the poster I originally responded to listed some, but he didn't list money. So I added that as another possible reason. I didn't discount the factors he posted.

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent? All over the place. I've been having regular discussion on the Twins story boards and message boards at MLB dot com for years and years and there have been many over the years that can't blame Gardy for anything. They have said stuff like that. It's never his fault. I don't make stuff up, these are conversations had.

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent? All over the place. I've been having regular discussion on the Twins story boards and message boards at MLB dot com for years and years and there have been many over the years that can't blame Gardy for anything. They have said stuff like that. It's never his fault. I don't make stuff up, these are conversations had.

At the end of 2011 seasons, Gardy did an interview on ESPN 1500 where he said that players were tuning him out and getting defensive when he talked to them. He even mentioned the players being mad cause he would 'throw them under the bus' to the media. But, he put that on all the players...not anything he was doing wrong, but their issues. Sounds to me like he had lost the team...

The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking? Also, they put the playoff record on the players, not Gardy's fault at all...but wait, if he gets credit for the division titles, cause he was a huge factor, why isn't he a huge factor in the playoff losses? IMO, when looking at the talent he had and comparing it to the talent in the rest of our division, the team winning so may division titles wasn't really an unbeleivable accomplishment. Does he deserve some credit, sure. Did he work miracles? No. He inherited a 2nd place team and the team won three straight titles. They were already on their way. In 2006, he had the CY Young winner, the MVP, the batting champ, a GG CF who hit 30 HR, Cuddyer, knocking in 100+RBI and a top 3 closer. He had the talent. He didn't do a 2012 Buck Showalter We've won the division twice in the last 6 years...one by winning less games than we did the year before when we didn't win the division, and the other in 2006, when Smith made some good moves to get actual talent in the middle IF. I predicted 94 wins before the season even started , on the Twins story boards, based on the talent we had. The should have won that many that year...and actually, should have won more if not for some bungling lineup moves by Gardy after clinching that took our momentum away going into the playoffs. He was a pretty good manager when he first started...he really hasn't been that good for quite a few years. 2010 MOY award was a joke...seriously..the job Francona did that year with all those injuries in that division, was way more impressive. My two cents, not worth much...

you mean we couldn't sign top pitchers in FA even when we were perennial contenders? Here I keep being told our problem signing top pitchers is because we're at the bottom of the division the last couple years so no one wants to come here. Where were all the great FA signings by the Twins when we were winning? How about the offseason before 2011 after we won 94 games in 2010?

No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to. It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better. All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis. Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team. In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

Sabathia had an ERA+ of 124 this year. Gavin Floyd had an ERA+ of 101. 23 point difference. Were they close? 23 point difference between Marcum and Correia in ERA+ last year...33 in 2011...47 in 2010.

Yeah, unfortunately, he really hasn't done a good job over the years at projecting...but, like you, I'm still a fan

Marcum hasn't had an ERA over 3.70 in 4 years...two of those years in the AL East. He also Ks some people.. ERA+ over 110 last 4 years. Jackson, slightly less impressive...both way better than Correia. We aren't asking much...

He's not gonna sniff 3.50...no way...it'll be a miracle if he's in the low 4.00. Bill James projects 4.09 in 2013. yeah, James is my boy...but that's wacky. He's not going to come to the AL, face DHs instead of pitchers, not strike anyone out, count on OUR defense, and get an ERA that low...and lower than last year, his lowest in 3 years A miracle.

To me it does... To most... They will just say they are both crappy and hope that we pick up Greinke. Seems to me most would be happy if we managed to get Marcum and/or Jackson...

The Marquis comparison isn't a bad one. Correia and Marquis are basically the same guy. Right-handed, soft-tossers with marginal control, don't miss bats, keep just over 50% of balls on the ground. With that said, Correia will probably not be as bad as Marquis in Minnesota. Marquis will also not be as good as he was in San Diego. The Marquis signing was "meh" at the time for me. I didn't like him as a pitcher but given the money left to JR at that point, I didn't fault him for trying. Marquis obviously had issues while in Minnesota because he completely imploded... but even if he had pitched similar to his 2011 line, he wasn't going to be very good and probably would have been a below average pitcher. I expect Correia to be that pitcher in 2013. Below average, declining, but not a complete implosion a la Marquis. And that still makes this two year (!) deal a mistake. I expect Correia to be a complete and utter disaster. Consider this: 2012 was his best season in the last 3 years. He posted an ERA+ of88. I don't see an ERA+ of 88 as good. He doesn't strike anybody out, instead relying on defense to do the job behind him. That's not gonna work out well. I won't argue projection. He could be anything from 3.50 to 12.00... If he has a similiar season to 2012... I'll be happy with that and the 5 million won't bug me at all. He's not gonna sniff 3.50...no way...it'll be a miracle if he's in the low 4.00.

'So he's better than Blackburn........that makes it any less putrid of a deal? ' Does it matter that even Blackburn was better than Correia in 4 of the last 5 seasons?

You overlooked the fact he's a seasoned veteran with lots of moxie.... And old reliable...the ball comes out of his hand good.

The Marquis comparison isn't a bad one. Correia and Marquis are basically the same guy. Right-handed, soft-tossers with marginal control, don't miss bats, keep just over 50% of balls on the ground. With that said, Correia will probably not be as bad as Marquis in Minnesota. Marquis will also not be as good as he was in San Diego. The Marquis signing was "meh" at the time for me. I didn't like him as a pitcher but given the money left to JR at that point, I didn't fault him for trying. Marquis obviously had issues while in Minnesota because he completely imploded... but even if he had pitched similar to his 2011 line, he wasn't going to be very good and probably would have been a below average pitcher. I expect Correia to be that pitcher in 2013. Below average, declining, but not a complete implosion a la Marquis. And that still makes this two year (!) deal a mistake. I expect Correia to be a complete and utter disaster. Consider this: 2012 was his best season in the last 3 years. He posted an ERA+ of88. I don't see an ERA+ of 88 as good. He doesn't strike anybody out, instead relying on defense to do the job behind him. That's not gonna work out well.

Gotta hand it to you Riverbrian...you really give it your all to back Ryan's moves. Way to stick to your guns

The majority of stats are all derived from the same basic information... Each different stat will simply add or takeaway from the same basic stats. Diamonds ERA was better than Correia in 2012... So it stands to reason that it would be better after it is adjusted for ballpark. Diamonds ERA was better based on 12 Earned runs over 170 innings. Point is, they were not basically the same as some have tried to say....and then add one was a rookie, one is a seasoned vet

Tigers have a heck of a pitching staff, and they are going after Sanchez...Royals get Shields and Wade Davis (who can be a starter...could be a good one...but TB made them a reliever cause they were pitching flush)...and we sign a guy like Correia to go along with other unimpressive starters.