ThePuck

or maybe draft them? Should have thought about that a long time ago :-)

Your point may be moot, Revere apparently is already drawing some interest, if you could you get a C+/B- rated "A level minor league experience SP for Revere, this whole discussion is academic. Or, does "teams with pitchers on the block" mean a Vargas-type from Seattle? from MLB Traderumors: "Although the Twins seem to be looking at plenty of pitching options in free agency, the team has also been more active in trade talks than expected, says Crasnick. Teams with pitchers on the block have approached the Twins about both Ben Revere and Josh Willingham." Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/minnesota_twins/index.html#ty30IECPbULUgyHk.99 Well, Hicks is a former 1st rounder with 5 seasons in the minors...it's about time he gets a chance.

There's an article written about 30 years ago by Bill James entitled 'So What's All The Fuss' It talks about the actual value of the stolen base. Talks about how stolen bases are pretty over-rated. I highly recommend the reading.

If we have to wait till 2014, 2015 (two, three seasons) and he's only a #4 pitcher, we got straight up robbed.

Now THAT was actually fantastic info. I learned something there. Thanks for that. Now, let me ask this question. Does that mean TF is only gonna allow us to raise payroll by 23M from 2007's payroll? Considering that was 6 years ago and how salaries have gone up quite a bit since then (Upton's new ridiculous salary, for example), the new park basically just allowed the Twins to stay more or less at the same pay rate?

Well, yeah. But it's a really low bar. He's put up FIPs in the high 3's and xFIP's in the low 3's the past two seasons, with K rates around 7.5 per nine. It's certainly debatable whether it's worth what he'll cost to have him pitch for a team that appears at the moment to not be planning on contending in 2013. But he's clearly a decent bet to be better than the likely in-house solutions to fill one of the non-Diamond rotation spots. So a poor defense has caused his ERA to be inflated? I ask because our defense wasn't good last year and it just got worse a few days ago

bump. Anyone see the interview?

I guess I feel that if they aren't going to go after at least a #2 and #3 type pitcher in free agency (and I don't mean a pitcher who would qualify as a #2 or #3 for us, but a real #2 and #3), then there's no reason to go after anyone. Blanton would be a waste of money

I would be careful making any judgements using stats. He was a college pitcher with an upper 90's fastball playing in A ball. he could have been missing his spots by a mile but still getting swings because he was flat out better than the competition. It wouldn't surprise me if the walks rose quite a bit as he moves up in the minors. FWIW - I like Meyer more everyday and I'm going to try not to get carried away but I also can't wait to see what he does in AA and hopefully AAA this season. Would you be surprised at all if he didn't start in AA this year?

Oh Lord, please don't sign Blanton...

Twins pitching was pretty bad in 2011 too :-) I think we're seeing eye to eye though.

I agree...but I'd like to point out that according to ESPN park factor information, TF was a hitter's park last year. Ranked 10th. I'd also like to point out that in 2010, Morneau was having an MVP type season before the concussion and had an OPS over .900 at TF.

Exactly.. Completely wrong, actually. There is a finite amount of money available for the Twins to spend on payroll, and that doesn't just fluctuate year to year. Saving one year may mean spending another year. To say that you know exactly what the Twins' payroll plans are for the coming several years is just wrong. You don't. Cool, so we should expect the Twins to spend that saved 18M the saved last year from 2011 payroll? Twins spent 112M in 2011, 94M in 2012, so will they A: not only got back to 112M, but add an additional 1*M they saved? Or B: just go up to 112 again? Or is it neither? Sounds like a rhetorical question. Why don't you spare us the condescension and let us know? I wasn't trying to be condescending. I was hoping to get an answer. If it came off that way, it was not intentional.

While I hate getting into payroll debates, it's worth noting that the Twins went over their budget in 2010 to get Pavano in January. $112m isn't really a fair baseline to use, as it was a conscious overspending based on a specific opportunity. The 112M was in 2011, not 2010...and the payroll wasn't to go for it after a disappointing finish to a promising 2010 season. It was mostly for pay raises due. Remember Mauer's pay raise kicked in...just for one example. In fact, payroll went up, even after they jettisoned their starting middle IFs and gutted their bullpen. There was no talent gain for 2011 to show they were going for it. Raises were just due.

Exactly.. Completely wrong, actually. There is a finite amount of money available for the Twins to spend on payroll, and that doesn't just fluctuate year to year. Saving one year may mean spending another year. To say that you know exactly what the Twins' payroll plans are for the coming several years is just wrong. You don't. Cool, so we should expect the Twins to spend that saved 18M the saved last year from 2011 payroll? Twins spent 112M in 2011, 94M in 2012, so will they A: not only got back to 112M, but add an additional 1*M they saved? Or B: just go up to 112 again? Or is it neither?

I currently don't get MLB network...I miss it...

Start them in the pen, see how they come alone...but yeah, low base high incentive for sure. Let's face it, we're gonna throw more money for worthless pitchers anyway...

Exactly..

ok thanks! That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sport/sport25.gif You guys had enough yet? That image is accurate, as I am certainly right handed. Ah, you're cute...delusional, but cute

I'm done with this...unless you wanna keep going round and round Dave...

ok thanks! That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured. I already responded to the rest of your questions you asked for the most part, I don't feel like dancing in circles any more with you. You said Span is more valuable (taking money off the table) then Upton, myself and every GM in the league disagree with you. Also, I didn't say you knew nothing about baseball, I said that if you only use one years worth of defensive metric data you were either: A. Being Disingenuous B. Knew nothing about baseball. It was an either/or scenario. You responded to: 'Oh, you prefer to use UZR...so you prefer to use stats that help your debate and discard those that don't. Even though Fangraph does both stats, only one has merit? UZR doesn't really help you though. Not for the last three years. And Span DOES NOT have a negative DRS over the last three years in CF. He had 20 this year, 9 in 2011 (while only playing half a season, BTW) and a -5 in 2010. That's not a negative, that's a big positive. And don't talk to me about snarky comments...you began our debate saying I didn't know baseball cause you didn't agree with my opinion. Doesn't get much snarkier than that. Or is it only okay when you do it? ' Really? You responded to me correcting your false statement about Span having a negative DRS over the last three years and me showing your UZR stats for the last three years didn't help your cause for Upton? And since I've cleared showed I'm not being disingenuous, that only leaves you to believe I don't know baseball. Basically it comes down to you saying if I don't have your opinion, I don't know baseball. But okay, if you say so

ok thanks! That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

Just like I can't help but noticed you avoided this whole post completely : 'Oh, you prefer to use UZR...so you prefer to use stats that help your debate and discard those that don't. Even though Fangraph does both stats, only one has merit? UZR doesn't really help you though. Not for the last three years. And Span DOES NOT have a negative DRS over the last three years in CF. He had 20 this year, 9 in 2011 (while only playing half a season, BTW) and a -5 in 2010. That's not a negative, that's a big positive. And don't talk to me about snarky comments...you began our debate saying I didn't know baseball cause you didn't agree with my opinion. Doesn't get much snarkier than that. Or is it only okay when you do it? ' Why did you avoid that post, exactly? I also noticed you said you were done with it as well since my mind wasn't gonna be changed... To answer yours, I don't believe Upton deserved anywhere near that contract...and no I don't think Span would get it. But I do believe HRs are overvalued in ALMOST all contracts and defense basically ignored in today's game when contracts are given out. In other words, because a team decided to seriously overpay a guy who doesn't deserve it, doesn't mean that it's a true measure of his value.

I'm done with this debate. It's been, well, interesting

Are you ****ing kidding me, Dave? I wanted Hardy around because he's not goddamned awful and he plays shortstop (very well). Given the Twins history of middle infielders, who didn't want that? Hardy's OBP is not optimal but when your other options include All-Stars like (fill in name of god-awful Twins middle infielder here), I'd take the corpse of Honus Wagner over those guys. But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base. Over the course of a season, that's the best way to win baseball games. I'm also the guy that constantly repeats "the most important thing in baseball is not getting out". Carroll had a higher OBP then Span last year, and significantly higher then Hardy (and Hardy as a Twin). Does that mean you prefer Carroll at SS over Hardy? Well, hmm, him being one of the very best shortstops in baseball has to be factored in. Overall player ability. Not any one stat.