TheLeviathan

Also...what the Royals got for Broxton was the kind of haul that would've been nice for Burton. Hell, I'd have taken just one of those guys and a lesser spec.

I can handle standing pat on Span and even Willingham - but jesus was this guy a clear case of "sell high". Relievers are a bit unpredictable and he's been having a fantastic season. We just lost out on a major opportunity to turn pennies into dollars with this guy.

In terms of pitching performance, by all means, point out the stats that are pertinent over the last 4 years. Liriano has been only slightly less awful than Blackburn. What their "value" is - is another question. The comparison was shown as a justification for why his value may have been that low and it's a perfectly valid point. If you are almost as bad a pitcher as Nick Blackburn - no one should expect your value to be sky high. The numbers are there. They don't lie. You're stuck on perception rather than seeing the point for what it is. The Twins weren't ever going to get much for Liriano because, frankly, he's just not been very good. In fact, he's been downright awful for much of the last four years. Awful enough that he is comparable with the dreaded King of Pitch to Contact: Nick Blackburn. If you disagree, by all means, use stats. Calling a stat not "pertinent" or "irrelevant" because it disagrees with your perception is incredibly foolish. Liriano's value didn't drop with his start against the White Sox - it dropped with 2009, 2011, and April of 2012. The same reason he's comparable to Blackburn in everything but strikeouts. Do you have a source for this or are you just speculating? I agree with the general idea that Ryan should've held off until today, but you're making this sound like he set up his own deadline. It makes sense, but do you know this to be true?

This was only one of his larger points. If the Twins did create this goofy deadline around his last start then it was a dumb move. Not because it indicated our "trust" level, but because it was bizarre and leverage-killing. The point that Liriano is something far, far greater than Blackburn is just not statistically true. Their numbers, other than one category, are very similar. And that one category isn't relevant when all the others are the same! Blackburn is a bad pitcher who can't strike people out. Liriano is a bad pitcher who can strike people out. They're both still bad pitchers! The scouts aren't going to miss that. The people combing his stats aren't going to miss that. This wasn't the case of a bad sell-job, this was the case of an obvious lemon. That was another of the larger points John was making - that the organization didn't properly spin Liriano's value. There is no spin to it - the stats don't lie when you look at them. I get everyone's desire to make Liriano a "frontline" starter or "ace". Strikeouts are generally an indicator of the ability to dominate as a starter, but that isn't always the case. Some guys still suck and have good stuff or strike-out ability. The Twins command and control style of pitcher is irritating all of us, but the answer to that isn't to fantasize about bad pitchers to make them what we want them to be. We need good pitchers, preferably ones capable of striking people out, but they still have to be good. Liriano was not and nothing Ryan communicated was going to change that.

No way man, I've resisted - been right there with you. I was calling for us to trade him before the season started. On the subject of this thread - dealing Morneau for pennies on the dollar is stupid. You either deal him to help the future or hope he gets it back together. Lately he sure looks good.

You know why statistics and baseball are a beautiful thing? It's hard for the stats themselves to lie. The infatuation with Liriano is entirely driven by one stat: strike-outs. Or at least the perception that Liriano is an "ace" because he can strike people out. He's also been a bad pitcher by virtually every stat that matters and marginally better than Blackburn by those same stats. "Stuff" and strikeouts are great - when the pitcher commanding them can utilize them. We are now nearly 4 years away from his surgery and he has been a bad pitcher for more than half that time. Not just bad - brutal. One of the worst in all of baseball and absolutely comparable to Blackburn - aka the poster boy for what is wrong with the Twins. This argument is nonsense. It's not cherry-picking stats. Scouts aren't stupid and forget to look at anything other than the last 10 starts. Liriano has been brutal for all but short stretches. It wouldn't have mattered what phony new paint job they did on Liriano - teams are smarter than this. You can criticize the manner in which the Twins asked for offers, but to suggest that the Twins could have marketed Liriano's value better to drive up value is hokey, naive nonsense. Liriano is what he is and people paid to give accurate reports to their superiors aren't going to be duped by some "As seen on TV" sell-job no matter how hard his slider breaks or his strike-out total climbs. They see a guy who statistically has been one of the most brutal in baseball far more often than he's even been good.

There have been a lot of things go right.....which one could easily make a negative about the future. (an opinion I hold) But lets hope these good things maintain!

God damn does this deserve to be reposted. It's like an antidote for the koolaid: I agree with jorgen. I was hoping the Twins would get someone else's reclamation project but I think a lot of people need to realize how bad Liriano's been. Since 2008, he's had a 89 ERA+ and about 4 WAR, Blackburn has had a 87 ERA+ (in many more innings) and about 3.5 WAR. Liriano has had some nice moments but most pitchers do. He's had a ton of disaster starts and we weren't going to get much for a player like that.

The kool-aid was mighty strong.

This conflict doesn't imply anyone is lying. It could be Ryan is telling the truth and Rosenthal is misinformed. Your argument is pretty bizarre.

One important difference is that Willingham is killing the ball. While his track record suggest a career abnormality, he's always brought power. Which is different than Liriano stringing together 10 starts against some of the worst offenses in baseball (with a few exceptions). I think concerning ourselves with the perception of the team to future FA is the cart before the horse. It's not relevant to the team in its current composition - we need to add talent and Hammer at "sell high" value is a good way to do that.

I hear the Twins are a 1.000 team since Friday. Why aren't we buying?

What this deal indicates is that "nobody" in their right mind really can think Liriano is a "frontline" anything. I have minimal hope for this deal panning out and I'm not a fan of the value they got, but what they got is exactly what one should expect for what Frankie ACTUALLY is. Not what we all fondly remember him to be. It's funny to talk with Sox fans in my family, they almost all have the same answer to two questions: How do you feel about Frankie and how do you feel about what you gave up? Answer: Meh. Couldn't agree more.

Damn I bet that makes the first big league ball check is all the sweeter after all that.

This is either a strong indication of our inept scouting or the league perception of Liriano. Either way we lose.

Not because he is arrogant but this kind of thing colors a lot of what he does. Which is disconcerting.

You forgot where we trade Matt Capps and Drew Butera's amazing handling abilities for Dylan Bundy and Adam Jones.

Right, no disagreement. My appall has more to do with the gymnastics to defend a clearly bad phrase as being accurate and right. It's arrogant, self-serving, and stupid the way he made his point. Just like it would be if a rightie tried to say the Bush tax cuts were responsible for building businesses. It's a quite indefensible statement on Obama's part. The more I listen to him the less I think I can vote for him again. Part of me hopes Moderate Mitt from Mass comes back in-office, but far from sold on that either. So far it looks like "write-in" for me.

If you're going to deal a reliever, I nominate Burton.

I've been appalled by the left's attempts to defend that. I understand what his point is - government provides some of the security needed to have an economy, but the way he phrased it was arrogant and completely idiotic. Completely indefensible.

so you're saying we should start one about trading for Verlander right? /snark (because it appears to be necessary)

I'm guessing Baltimore - Matusz, Tyler wilson, and Robert Hinton. Trying to be optimistic.

This x 100 - this is the point.

Are you on drugs? Nothing was suggested about what you said - in fact - I asked you to be more specific. Don't cower behind being "general" and then get your panties in a wad when things are spoken about generally. So, again, be specific please. You waded into a general conversation yourself, what's insulting is to have you play this scolded puppy routine and then chop up quotes to make your point. I'm a season ticket-holder, I'm not thrilled about the idea about the Pohlads pocketing money (as I suggested that any funds not spent should be carried forward. And how I disagree strongly if that is against Pohlad policy) But NOTHING I said had anything to do with dumping money. It's not about unloading payroll - if that happens it's merely a byproduct of the real focus. In fact, since you continue to assume, I wouldn't even consider moving the Twins top two earners. I think their value is either too low to achieve what I said (acquiring assets) or can be part of the team later (when our best prospects arrive). This is about dealing Span who will be displaced, Willingham who is having a career year and is 33, Liriano who is a bad investment, Burton, Carroll, Pavano, Capps, and anyone else that would qualify as having value that can A) acquire assets to build around or will not be part of the team when our best prospects arrive. To bypass on doing any of this in the name of 10 wins/losses in 2013 or about the bottom line on the payroll next year is stupid. It's bad planning and it will only hurt the team's future. The only investments I make into offseason FA are guys that I can sign for below market contracts (thus making them more tradeable) or that are young and capable of helping the team for many years into the future. Congrats on wildly twisting the point though. Bang up job. (Even more amusing that you did it by hypocritically complaining about words being put in your mouth)

Bingo - this baffles me as well.