TheLeviathan
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Everything posted by TheLeviathan
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I'm rooting for Benson, I think the bulk of the post-May season will be Hicks, so I'd like to spend some time seeing Benson again for the first few montsh. The more I look at this roster the more I think Mastro will be playing significant time in RF with Parmalee, Doumit, Mauer, Morneau splitting 1B/DH time a bit. Not every day, but maybe 3-4 days a week we see him playing. -
I'm sure it had little to do with 3 years and 25M being offered.
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Well, at least we've moved on from that foolish assertion you made initially. Not all of these contracts are worth it and Frasor is not anything special, but 2Mish money is a drop in the bucket when you're looking at a 25M reduction in big league payroll. At this point you're looking at 25M flushed into the owners pockets or 2M gambled (at whatever odds, you may be right that they aren't great odds) on helping the future. I don't see how anyone can argue that they, as a fan, don't prefer the gamble. And it's perfectly ok, given the amount of available salary, for fans to be pissed that we aren't taking those gambles. I know personally, as someone who has given literally given over a thousand dollars to this team over the course of TF's existence (as a season ticket holder and dedicated consumer of Kramarczuk's brats) I've paid more than my share to be pissed at the ownership pocketing money after campaigning hard after the season to keep all of us by promising major changes. (I can assure you, as a season ticket holder, that they were just short of harassment in how much they pleaded with me not to cancel) So this smug campaign you and others are on to silence frustration is pretty damn irritating.
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Yup, I was going from memory on my phone, when I fact checked I edited. Broxton did not net two "c" prospects (though, why does it matter, the Royals turned a one year deal into long-term potential, which is the whole point you were rejecting), he landed two players that had been ranked in the Red's top 10 prior to the year. Maholm and Correia are not similar in anything but the position they play. Even still, because you seem to have forgotten your initial errant comment, the point is players do sign contracts when there is a high degree of likelihood that they will be dealt. They accept that trade-off for an opportunity (like closing in Broxton's case and a rotation spot for Maholm). It isn't that hard, you're arguing something patently false.
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Last year the following players signed short term deals and were dealt: Jonathon Broxton and Paul Maholm all signed smaller deals with bad teams and were flipped by that team sometime during the year. Now, please save yourself some dignity here and don't go with "yeah but those players didn't sign to be traded....bla bla bla" - what they did was sign with bad teams that would guarantee them of an opportunity to showcase themselves in hopes of a bigger contract the next year. Part of that guarantee comes with the potential of being traded because you never signed for stability, you signed for opportunity. No one sits at the table and says "hey...we just want to play you and then trade you"....."Oh, good, I was just using you guys to make money." Both sides go in knowing the risks and rewards. Some players accept the high risk of being dealt if successful in exchange for the greater opportunity to showcase.
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I didn't make that claim. No one signs KNOWING they will be traded. But players sign for bad teams for greater opportunity to showcase knowing that there is a strong chance that they may be traded as a trade-off to the opportunity. And I gave you examples. Teams sign them to fill holes, players agree to those deals for the opportunity knowing full well they might be moved.
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Fair enough, in that case others are going to need a thicker skin on this issue.
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Yeah, now there is one. It's only going to build until games, even meaningless ones, are played. And people are justified to feel that way, even if it annoys you to hear it.
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I fail to see how this helps. Jason Frasor, Shaun Marcum, hell even Michael Bourn, would all "fill holes" on this team. The Twins could sign three relievers and still be filling holes in all likelihood. Your point was that players don't sign to be moved, but players sign short deals for opportunities that they know may result in a trade all the time. That claim was 100% false on your part.
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It isn't uncommon for players to sign with a team they know isn't very good just so they can assure themselves of an opportunity to showcase their abilities. Hell, the entire concept of signing a minor league deal or a 1 year deal is based on that premise. So yes, many players would do that. (One could argue all those years of Dave Hollins and Otis Nixon were premised on exactly that notion and were used effectively to help the team's return to respectability around 200) And I would argue there is still plenty of quality available that far exceeds what we have signed thus far.
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So you pull the context out...that's the game? People on this board continue to rip anyone with a negative take on the Twins moves. My point is simple - they have a right to be bitter and negative because all they are doing is holding the team accountable to it's own words. There is no defense for that, none. Frankly, if they had said "we're going to rebuild this offseason" I would have given that a huge thumbs up. That's what they needed to do. I'm only defending the fact that people that are bitter, have plenty of reason to be. They aren't whiny, turncoat Twins fans and shouldn't be treated as such. And moves like this one are going to spark bitterness because people care about the team and every talented player that leaves the market is only salt in the wound that was this offseason. I wouldn't have had to repeat myself 6-7 times if people actually did "get it" - that's the problem.
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Today I learned Talking a big game about high expectations and being "content" landing Correia makes 70Chargers a happy Twins fan. See how that game works? This organization knew fans could see the writing on the wall and, in my opinion, basically lied publicly to keep fan support up. That's worst case, I admit. Best case is that these guys talked a big game and failed to live up to it. Either way I fail to see how this deserves a defense.
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I'm talking about the forum in general. Again, as I said earlier, it's not Frasor, it's what he represents - a player who is arguably better than anyone the Twins signed as a FA going for a low-risk contract while we sit 30% (give or take) down from our payroll last year. So it feeds the view that this offseason has been a complete failure by the very expectations the Twins told us to get behind.
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Until the season starts....what other view makes any sense and isn't just pie-in-the-sky nonsense?
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Where are these over-the-top diatribes you keep referring to exactly in this thread? I see bitterness and snark, but none of this. Where is it exactly? What I see is a few posters here so aggressively looking to defend the Twins that they are jumping on anyone expressing frustration as if they're canceling their Twins Fan membership cards and stomping down to Target Field with pitchforks in hand. Chill, people can be frustrated and message boards are totally appropriate venue to express it. Lectures like the ones you, Psuedo, and nurse are handing out about it look pretty friggin silly in light of what the organization has said about what it would do this offseason.
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Article: Would a Six-Man Rotation Make Sense?
TheLeviathan replied to Nick Nelson's topic in Twins Daily Front Page News
Yeah...pretty much this. -
Right but you have to understand every guy like this is going to remind people of the promises laid out before the offseason and cause them to look again at the pitiful collection of "talent" brought in with this much salary room available. You could argue with the trade of Span they essentially took 30M in reduced payroll and spent 14% of it to help a roster that produced one of baseball's worst records. Now personally, I love what Ryan did in everything but FA contracts. (Genuinely love it!) But a guy like Marcum screams what he was talking about in the handbook and other places. As did a bevy of others. I don't blame people for grumbling. And I think it's silly as hell to lecture people on having disappointed bitterness when the root source of that is an expectation that wasn't created by the fans, but by the organization who couldn't wait to reassure us all that they were mad as hell about losing and not going to take it anymore. And all that big talk landed us was friggin Correia in non-trades.
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Perhaps there should be less strawmen thrown around then. None of those asinine questions were brought up by anyone. They're incredibly stupid, shallow contributions to the conversation.
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It doesn't have to be Frasor. But this team has publically declared their comfort with being done this offseason. When you see talent like Frasor still out there for reasonable price tags - that is hard to swallow with the amount of budget room left.
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Any non-strawmen to ask?
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It doesn't change that with this amount of budget space that they aren't willing to be a little more risk averse. They are playing it way too safely - from choosing Pelfrey over Baker, Correia/Blanton over Marcum/whomever, etc. They have the budget room to take more gambles and they said, pre-offseason, that they were going to be more aggressive. All people are doing is holding their feet the same fight the Twins lit themselves. I don't get the crusaders to defend the Twins from the very expectations they set out. That is 100% ridiculous.
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Hence why Frasor, a bullpen arm, is worthy to complain about a bit. They haven't even added a Burton this year to a pen that could also use some help. Given this team's lack of talent, a significant addition and a few more talented flyers is reasonable to expect. At this point one could seriously question the talent of those 4 pitchers relative to what was available and the budget space to add them.
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If this is November I don't disagree. But right now it could be argued Frasor would walk in our third best reliever. The contract he was signed to is incredibly affordable. There is zero question he is better than guys currently slotted to pitch significant innings. And all of this comes in the weeks after our FO has declared that they are pretty much done. With this much budget room left and clear upgrades still available (and in light of significant promises before the offseason) I think it is perfectly valuable to grumble when we see talent coming off the market that would add to this team. Frankly, there is no defense of the FO when they set the expectations and then failed to live up to them. Again, I like what they've done for the most part, but that doesn't mean they are beyond criticism.
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You seem to be intentionally avoiding a very simple notion. It's always better to have more talent. No one is arguing these players magically make them a world series contender, but when you are between 20-30% under budget, some flyers aren't a bad idea. Even if they only marginally improve your team immediately, they represent possible trade value if handled properly and things go well. If the chips are truly in the hands of the next wave, why not add placeholders that also can be moved for further assistance for that next wave?
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If you're not going to spend your money in big splashes, then why aren't they grabbing bullpen arms? It's not like there is a surplus of riches in the pen either. Plus they tend to make excellent trade bait if successful.
