TheLeviathan

Care to fill us in on the details of those negotiations? How hard did they try? Things can get pretty simple when you put enough dollars on the table, but by all means, fill us in on how those went. You seem to hold that level of evidence to others. As a very thoughtful poster said here, at some point the simplest answer is the right one. And quite frankly, this team just doesn't like handing out big FA contracts. It doesn't like handing out big contracts to pitchers period. All this spin overlooks the simplest answer.

Ryan is a smart man, if he's going to pronounce that boldly to the fan-base - he should know he has to deliver. Even if the cost isn't very palatable to him. The Twins promised more than just improvements. Given how awful their talent was last year, the bar you're setting for those promises is incredibly low and was virtually guaranteed to be passed by the signing of any warm body. That isn't what was promised. I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff. I don't know if he was misleading or naive. I'm just not comfortable with either answer. And I'm definitely not comfortable with the spin after the results. That may very well be the problem. This is a fanbase that jumps on and off quickly, they are risking turning that jewel in downtown Minneapolis into a ghost-town if this is all the commitment they have to the talent on the field. I'll ask it again - if the Pohlad's don't think this product is worth spending money on.....why in the hell should I? And before you say "Ok...that's your choice" just remember how quickly a few choices like that compound themselves for the health of the franchise.

Why,in their current state, should the Twins care at all about risk? If anything, they should be taking advantage of the fact that they can and SHOULD be willing to gamble on risk. No one is talking 7 years of payroll-breaking here. We're talking about 3 year deals on a payroll that is only going to shrink further in the coming seasons. I appreciate how savvy Ryan is about good business decisions. But with this much available payroll and this much need, his unwillingness to gamble or take risks at all is a bit disturbing.

First, most conversation here is about Marcum. Or of previously available, more talented options than the ones signed. Secondly, you are misunderstanding Psuedo's point. The diminishing returns is in reference to the fact that at some point more money into players yields a diminishing return on the team's win improvement. The diminishing returns you are speaking of are precisely why this team cutting payroll and fielding an inferior team to the one they could potentially field is a serious threat not just to 2013, but beyond. It's much easier to tell a fan base that your third bad season in a row was tough to swallow after you made an honest, concerted effort to improve in the offseason. At least you tried to reverse the direction it was heading. Highlighting an offseason with Correia? That sales pitch is a helluva lot harder.

I hope the sarcasm was noted before that link was posted.

I don't understand all this Butera hate.....if they got rid of the bum blocking him we could really see this kid shine.

So, then, by that logic the Twins were lying to say they wanted to upgrade the roster. No matter how you shift the focus, the FO has a ton of accountability. Personally, I'm not seeing anyone that Johnson would be "blocking" other than the typical MI garbage. Let them fight over frustrating SS starts. As for Marcum - you don't worry about who he replaces. He's better than anyone currently in the rotation. The guy that loses his spot isn't Hendricks or Gibson - it's Pelfrey.

The way the Twins budget this is really stretching for a defense. By all means, see if you can get an explanation, but there is nothing circular to the argument. The promises were not about what payroll would be, but what would be added to the roster. Those promises flopped and payroll was not the issue. For what you claim to be true, Ryan had to be so naive about the price of starting pitching that he was ignorant of how off-base his bravado would look later when the true price came out. I have a hard time believing, as smart as I think Terry Ryan is, that he was that naive about free agency. And if he was, that isn't all that reassuring either.

No one here is suggesting they get Correia II just so payroll's bottom line looks better. The fact is there are several players enormously better than guys currently on the roster that are available. The best part is they won't be blocking anyone either. Adding assets to a team may have a "diminishing return" but there are truly assets available and any team should pursue those if they can. Especially when they are reaching a point of desperation at those positions. (MI and SP) I can tell you as a season ticket holder that couldn't use his seats the last two months of the season that apathy is a very real threat for this team. Another season of losing and the diminishing return the Twins should be worried about will have a much different connotation.

Damn, I've been debating calling him J.J. Hardy's publicist.....well played. That schtick is old.

Right now, a month before people start reporting, is precisely the time to do that. Marcum and Johnson are likely available for less than what they would have been previously provided you are willing to take a risk. Everyone gets what you've said. There is no debate about magically making this team a contender. The problem is you not only hurt your talent level on the field, you hurt your standing publicly when you boast so loudly and flop so futilely and then pretend as though you've improved 2013 to have competitive games in September. Ownership might want to prioritize fan apathy over diminishing returns. Especially when they're still drawing a profit regardless.

One word: Contraction. I think we know how this ownership responds to that. Not to say they contract but they def dont spend out of trouble.

I think the colossal failure that is this offseason and an all but guaranteed season of futility is slowly burying us further behind. Even if the gestures are ultimately token, it does matter.

Well played sir.

So...did he do something stupid or is the medical team rearing its ugly head again?

So can we as fans. The problem with that is, the more of us that do that, the more it compounds the problem. Which only limits the success of the franchise long-term. Not spending now or showing a lack of commitment to the team now does have long-term ramifications. This franchise's history with that wasn't that long ago we should forget.

This is all well and good, but I think it misses the point. I don't think many here have any delusions that another 10-15 million spent in FA makes this team a playoff team. It certainly wouldn't hurt their luck, but the rub is more that additional talent opens more options than you can usually foresee even at the time of signing. Signing Marcum and Johnson to short term deals makes a lot of sense for a number of reasons, namely A) It replaces a bad player at a key position these are positions with no organizational depth at the top of their minor league system that should be feared as being blocked and c) Provides value and production at two positions that are usually high in demand. Even if these players never play more than a year for the Twins, they offer the team the option of not playing bad players or flipping these players for more value down the line. In other words, there is literally no downside whatsoever other than pocketed money for the Pohlads being spent on the team. The Pohlads, by the way, are already budgeting to pocket money normally, this is just icing on the cake. If a zero downside move like this one to potentially upgrade the team's overall talent level significantly is too much for this ownership to stomach, than I think I make take a similar approach with my spending dollars. I'm still a fan, but the money they'll get from me will be dramatically reduced. It's just not fair to ask of your fans what you aren't willing to do yourself. Everyone rushing to defend the "spend for the sake of spending" are essentially acknowledging a crappy product. Why would I invest in that crappy product if they won't?

It's far from every post, especially in this thread I've tried to stick very hard to the points. But if you're going to jump into a 10 page thread - read it first would be my advice for that poster. Most of that trumped up post had been responded to multiple times, it was annoying to have it rehashed again.

I'd go 2/20, but I don't think it will take that much. Does someone with more knowledge of this care to help with the international signing cap? I don't understand how these Cuban guys wouldn't count, is it due to age?

Here's my response to the "Why spend money to spend money crowd" - if the Twins don't feel it worthwhile to spend on their product - why should I? And if more people start thinking like me, where does that leave this team's future?

Not to mention the fact that Shaun Marcum and Kelly Johnson wouldn't cost more than what the Pohlad's will currently be pocketing and neither of them are blocking any prospects. There is no defensible reason not to take these gambles.

There are 10 pages of solid material to refute the overly-wordy crap you posted that is best reduced to this statement.

So the moral of those two stories is adding more context provides more insight about a player's talents. Which is, you know, important when signing them to lucrative contracts.

True, he won't be young at that point. He also represents some nice possibilities for low-risk, high-reward trade value. Again, I think all we're talking about his money that is going to be pocketed. It's frustrating that money we're contributing to the team isn't being put back into it at the rate generally expected.

True, and I don't disagree. However, this thread is more about holding Ryan to promises about 2013. Marcum at least possibly could be a nice bridge when 2015 comes. And there is nothing to say, if he does pan out, that you can't extend him. With rotation spots open (i.e.: not blocking anyone significant) the Twins should be gambling with players that could be long-term help. Marcum is young enough to be that and has been very, very good. What he represents for 2013 is a promise kept by Ryan to ticket-holders. But, for those of us that always thought 2015 was a more realistic vision for this team, he also represents a nice piece of the puzzle.