Look, it's insulting to characterize people who disagree with your viewpoint as pure talking points. I get beliefs from my experience with people, not from the radio (as one former BYTO poster once accused me). I don't need to drag out my own experience (if you're actually curious, PM me), but I've rarely encountered people who truly need to be cut off and who through mentorship and opportunity don't desire to try hard, to acquire work ethic, to be a productive member of a community. Seriously, even the people with the poorest attitudes can become motivated under the right circumstances. That fact that some people rise from poverty to achieve success is notable speaks to its rarity. People rarely escape poverty without some outside assistance; I think it's absurd to suggest that such people are testaments to the fact the everyone can overcome poverty. There's something really disconnected in your analysis of why people fail or why people choose to fail if you believe that children aspire to live on welfare. Seriously. No one aspires to live on welfare, especially children. (Of course there are people who see such few options for themselves, that they see welfare as the best path for their life, which is sad, not blame-worthy). I understand your point about normalizing welfare-lifestyle, but your solution (or non-solution) is just lazy. We have the history of civilization to tell us what happens when the poor and incapable are left to their own means. You get the plague. I mean are you actually imagining what urban environments would look like without social welfare? I don't think you're following your thought experiment to any arduous end; you somehow assume that pain and misery of poverty-stricken children will suddenly result in them trying harder at their underfunded and poorly-instructed classes, that some how seeing their parents and themselves go without food and healthcare will teach them the value of some good ole fashion work ethic. Again, imagine what wide-spread poverty looks like. There are places in the world and instances throughout history where you can see the ends of your philosophy. Despite how you try to characterize my point of view, I'm not some dumb flower-kissing hippy. I don't want people to mooch, and I understand their tendency to do so. I think we can create efficacious welfare to work programs if we have 1) the funding 2) the policy 3) the jobs on the otherside. If simple laziness were indeed the root of why people grow dependent on welfare we'd see jobs going unfilled and a premium on motivated workers, which would result in higher wages. But of course, that's not the case. At the base of your assumption is that there are indeed enough jobs to employ all of the people who are welfare which is a total and obvious falsehood. Another silly assertion that libertarians like to proffer is that if we simply cut taxes on businesses, we'd suddenly have enough jobs to employ everyone. This is something I've asserted before, but we could cut taxes to zero and businesses would still not come to America for it's low-skilled labor. Our standard of living and hence our labor is far too expensive to compete in free world market. It will always be cheaper and more profitable to build a plant in Indonesia because their labor is cheaper (both because of economy there and the lack of civil rights and worker rights). What is more slippery is how do you decide who needs help legitimately and who does not? I'm pretty sure that welfare programs try to do this, but with what success, I'm not sure. Even if we can decide who the illegitimate needy are, what happens to such people? Pretty soon you're breeding criminals, because desperate people do desperate things. I agree there's illegitimate needy people, but I think they are such a small percentage, that we can regard such people as sunk cost. A broken dish in a restaurant, to run out a dehumanizing metaphor. Any effective welfare-to-work program will involve fraud, and needs to guard itself against defiant people, but we can't simply get rid of the programs because they might be abused. We all agree let's help people who need it and avoid creating a system that breeds ineffectual citizens. We all agree with that. But what I am not seeing from you is ideas of how welfare-to-work might operate. In fact I'm seeing zero ideas from you, just in your words, libertarian talking points. Which strikes me as lazy. (To Levi's credit, he's willing to get nuts and bolts about how to fix it, and what we find is that we often agree at what kind of welfare mechanism we'd like to see). The libertarian policy is no policy. Again, which is damn lazy. There's hard work to do on social welfare, but your philosophy contributes zero to real-world workable solutions. You stand in the way. What I find so offensive is that you also seem so lazy in your analysis of why people fail and how people become lazy and what the day-to-day living on welfare is really like. I don't think you've spent a lot of time thinking about the roots of failure, when and where it happens, the psychology of it; much less, how to break people out of the attitudes of failure. Again, no one wants to simply give a man a fish, we want to teach a man to fish; but the process of teaching/training is complicated, especially in terms of the unwilling or the broken, but it's totally within our capacity to design such policy and to people it with individuals who can get the job done. We need smart, tough policy. Not railing against the idea of public policy (government) in general.