mlhouse

YOu have to bring Rosario up. Play an outfield of Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, and Gassman. Play them, play them, and play them. I know the Twins are just itching to have a 29 year old waiver wire guy like Clete Thomas become available so they have an excuse to send Kepler and/or Buxton down to the minors. That is just the way they do it. I would rather lose the games now and find out if these guys can play. I was looking at the entire positional players in the minor leagues and it really is in shambles. To be fair, most of the talent is now up and struggling at the major league level. But, the fact is, behind it the cupboard is almost completely bare. Position by position we have little left in the system. Catcher - Only two marginal prosects Garver (25) and Turner (24) both at AA. First Base - Kenys Vargas (25) a minor failed prospect at AAA Second Base Nick Gordon (20) Solid prospect at A+ SS - Engeleb Vielma 21 AA 3B Polanco (22) AAA OF Rosario (24) AAA, Walker (24) AAA, Santana (25) AAA, Harrison 23 (AA) Palka (24) AA, Wade (22) A- That is it for the entire organization. The remaining players are mostly filler, lots of other organizations castoffs, and low draft picks that dont have much future. They have really neglected the positional aspects in the draft and put too much empahsis on pitching that has simply not panned out either (mainly because the idea of drafting college relief pitchers and turn them into starting pitchers was probably not the smartest to start with).

And instead of working on them we just show we have no confidence in him and replace him with a with a waiver wire player that will be joining is 3rd team of the season. How any of these moves makes any sense in rebuilding this team totally escapes me. To get better we must get "worse", play the kids, take the lumps. Maybe Chargois is not the closer of the future. But the only way to tell is to have him pitching in the major leagues. The step from minors to majors is a big one. Sending him back to strike out more AAA batters does nothing to taking that next step. IT is the same with all of our young players. This has been an ongoing saga for 5 years now. This team would rather player the Eric Fryers of the world than develop their young players.

In the lower minors most of the prospects are in the pitching. For example, with the exception of Nick Gordon, Ft Myers does not have any hitting prospects on the roster.

Since that is Navy, probably not.

Exactly. If they traded Plouffe, Dozier, Nunez and got a dozen practice baseballs apiece they should do the trade. I have always liked Brian Dozier. He was a solid player for the past 3 years but disappointing too because he never seemed to be able to put it all together. Although he is only in his 5th year he is 29 years old. The future of this team is at least 2-4 years out. HE needs to make way for a younger player. Same with Plouffe. What is disappointing is Eduardo Escobar. The previous two seasons he looked like he could be a solid big league SS, with OPS > 720 and over 100 OPS+. For a SS he had nice power numbers, over 40% of his hits were extra bases two years in a row, and he had over 10 HR last year. This year he essentially sucks.

Ok....sorry.

Who cares. We already are on pace for 110 losses this season. So what has more value to the long term prospects of the team? A 110 loss year where we get most of the prospects up and evaluated or a 110 loss year playing 32 year old Kurt Suzuki, 31 year old Kevin Jepsen amongst other mediocre at best veterans???? Get Mitch Garver AND Stuart Turner up to the major leagues. Release Suzuki. Get JT Chargois up to be the closer and move Jepsen down to setup role, trade him, or release him. Put the potential OF together of Rosario, Buxton, Kepler and let Grossman try to stay at the 4th OF. Move Sano to 3B trade or release Plouffe. Let Polanco play most every day as the utility guy. Get Berrios into the starting rotation. Keep Dean and Duffey there. Try to move Santana or Hughes. Release Nolansco. Give Taylor Rodgers a starting slot until Gibson comes back. In the bullpen get rid of anyone over 28 years of age and give their spot to Alex Meyer and others. The organization should set a 21 year MLB debut target for their HS draftees and 23/24 for their college draftees. Some prospects should be rushed faster than that. I have said they should start Kirilloff at the MLB level. It wont happen, but they should follow what the Mets did with Carlos Gomez: 18 year old both rookie levels. Age 19 full season at A level. Age 20 full season at AA. Age 21 AAA and major league debut with 139 PA. He was traded to Minnesota the next season.

Who was the 3rd pick in that draft? He was in the major league lineup at 18 too. TO the person talking about Killebrew, I didn't bring him up. But his minor league experience was minimal. And, of course the Twins will never bring him up so quickly. They will start him is Rookie - league in Ft Myers. Then extended spring training and then to Elizabethrown. When he is 20 he might just break camp with Cedar Rapdids. Then one step at a time until he is 23-24 years old, struggles, back down, up and down..... But here is the real issue: How well has the Twins cautious system worked out? Do our prospects come to the major leagues well prepared to play? Top 5 minor league prospects Buxton and Sano, were they ready? Rosario, Vargas, Arcia, Kepler? The pitching prospects have not been any different either. If you look at our starting staff, Gibson, Duffey, and Dean are the only internally developed players. Gibson is essentially established but Duff and Dean are a ways from it. They are 25 and 27 years old respectivelly, not young prospects. The incremental approach is what you do when you have a team that is playing well. This team is not, and has not. THe losses keep piling on but we are playing 30+ year old players all across the board. What is the value in that? Get the players up. There is no reason to play Kurt Suzuki. Release him and pay him off. Put Mitch Garver in his spot. Trade Plouffe for next to nothing. Dozier too. Move in Polanco, Kepler, and Sano to 3B. IF we are going to lose 110 games lets get the development we need from it.

Like I said, good players can be developed in the major leagues. Bad players can look great in the minors and then never be able to play at the highest level. THe problem with the Twins is that they will not commit to being a developmental team at the major league level. For the past 5 years they have mostly trotted out replacement level players and have lost 90+ games each season with the fluke season last year. They show ZERO commitment to their young prospects like Berrios, Kepler, Buxton mostly, Rosario, Polanco, bouncing them up and down without really giving them a chance to fully adjust. They also are too timid in bringing up players like Chargois who demonstrate they have mastered the minor league levels. You need patience to let these guys play. They will strike out and commit errors and walk batters when that is the last thing you want them to do. THEY WILL LOSE BALL GAMES. But the good players will develop and the bad players will show the obvious. So, it is a stretch to bring up a 18 year old player, but it has been done. When Robin Yount was brought up to the major leagues at the age of 18, Joe Garioggila joked that they had to protect him from the veterans swearing around him. Yount was pretty good I guess.

The Senators were terrible, no doubt, but they had Sievers in LF and Lemon in RF, with Eddie Yost at 3B. And Harmon never played a season completely in the minors in his entire career. He obviously was not allowed to go to the minors at all as a bonus baby. Regardless, if Harmon was a player in the modern Twins organization he would have made the majors at 24 or 25, putzing him along the minor league trying to find his position and cut down on his strikeouts.

Kurt Suzuki is on the team................ and there is a lot more competition for terrible OPS. Good players can be developed at the MLB level. Most of the Twins WS team was. If they aint good, then they can never be developed. You can find that out right away too. If the Twins had a better prospect as an alternative then that would be a different story. But the fact is, they really don't. THey will plug some mediocrity in the lineup instead.

THis will be the most outrageous statement of the night: I think the TWins should move Kirollof up to the big leagues almost immediately. Dump Plouffe, move Sano to 3B, and put him in RF. He is physically mature, has a mature approach at the plate, is a good defender with a plus arm. I bet you he would not have the lowest OPS of the main players.

The management of Chargois to me exemplifies the ineptness of the Twins management. They don't have a closer. THey have a prospect at AAA that most minor league hitters cannot hit. They are on a 115 loss pace. What's the rush? FIrst, it isn't like Chargois is a young kid by MLB rookie standards. Because of injuries his career has really been short circuited (Josh Bard is another example). Chargois is 25 years old. Are they going to short step him every year, bounce him around a while, and finally give him an opportunity when he is 30? Second, when you are rebuilding not every prospect you bring up is going to pan out. It takes some time to evaluate them fully under major league conditions. We don't really need much more proof that JT Chargois can get minor league hitters out and throw really hard. What we do need to know is if his stuff translates to MLB and if he can be a closer at this level. THe only way to find that out is to get him up to the big leagues and see. Having him prove he can strike minor league hitters more just postpones any chance that we can put a competitive team together. Third, all of the alternatives suck. It would be different if Perkins was healthy or Jepsen was throwing like he did last season. Or if there were several other closer candidates waiting in the wings throwing in short relief or in the minors. But there isn't. ALl of teh veterans on the staff are not throwing well and Chargois is the obvious next candidate. The lineup for the Twins should be Sano at 3B (when healthy, Plouffe traded a long time ago), Escobar/Nunez, Polanco playing utility2B (Dozier traded), Mauer because we cant dump his contract, Garver at C with Turner backing him up, Kepler, Buxton, and Grossman in the OF, with Rosario as the 4th. Park the DH. The starters should be Duffy, Berrio, Jay, Gibson, and Dean/Rogers. Closer: Chargois. Bullpen: TOnkin, Dean/Rogers, etc. What is the problem with this? We might lose 100 games??? Lets get this over with. Evaluate the kids. Develop them at the major league level. Find the players who work and dump the players that do not. If we keep going at this half way crap we are going to be terrible for an even longer time.

Only the Twins organization would not have called up Chargois at this point.

Hughes and Nolansco might be contracts the team needs to eat over the next couple of years. These were poor decisions, adding mediocre veteran arms on long term contracts to a rebuilding franchise. On the other hand, I think that Plouffe, Dozier, and E. Santana have a little trade value because their contracts are reasonable. If you are a team needing a 3B for a stretch run Plouffe would be a perfect acquisition: expiring contract, reasonable, veteran skill.

So, after bouncing them around for 3 more years maybe they will get it, when they are 27-28 years old. The difference in pro sports is that you either sink or swim. The other thing I question is whether the minor leagues is where you should "get it". Eddie Rosario can hit minor league pitching. Max Kepler can hit minor league pitching. Jose Berrio can get minor league hitters out. What they are lacking in their development is hitting major league pitchers and getting major league hitters out. Using your analogy, sending these guys back to the minor leagues is like having them take and re-take "pre-calculus" when they have already gotten an A in that course several times, but at the same time they still need work to pass the full calculus course. Since they will never work on the aspects of calc that are not part of the pre-calc course, they will not really get better.

Was Jose Berrios struggling in AAA??? When he was called up his ERA was 1.06 and WHIP 0.941. Last season he was moved up to AAA and had a 2.62 ERA and WHIP of 0.965. HOw much more success at AAA does Berrios need to experience? Let him face his lumps on the big league stage. Why are the Twins so afraid of this? Do they draft players with such fragile psyches they cannot overcome their initial failures? Frank Viola was a 22 year old pitcher in 1982 in his first major league season. He went 4 and 10. His ERA was 5.21. The next season he was worse, 7-15 with a 5.49 ERA and worse WHIP. But the TWins did not send him down. They sent him out to the mound in 1983 for 210 innings. Failure bred success. In a rebuilding scenario you need to develop your team at the major league level. If you don't, when the players arrive they are running out of time to have a lot of options, the ones that will not be able to make it are not known, and to develop the whole team takes too much time. While last season's apparent fluke season stopped 4 straight 90 loss seasons, the Twins still seemingly prefer to pretend that they are some sort of minor contender, keeping their prospects on a one step at a time approach, and signing mediocre veterans to play (at surprisingly high level contracts) instead of the young prospect. This approach has obviously failed as this season shows we have not advanced significantly, and quite frankly, all of the top name prospects have not performed like we expected them to. So, lets lose some more. I repeat myself but how much worse would a lineup of Sano-Buxton-Kepler-Polanco-Arcia-Rosario-Garver/Turner do than the previous 5 years? Bring JT Chargois and Nick Burdi up to the bullpen. Berrios, Duffey locked into the starting rotation. 110 losses? Does it really matter? We would for sure get the #1 overall pick in 2017, and probably in 2018 which is a major plus. How we would get rid of our veteran players would be a question mark, although Plouffe and Dozier probably have a little trade value being veteran players on reasonable MLB contacts. I think only Ervin Santana has value amongst the veteran starters. Phil Hughes looks like he is done and still ahs $40 million left. While it looked better before the season started, the Twins situation is really in dire straits.

And you identify the main problem with the Twins approach. IF YOU CALL UP ANY OF THESE YOUNG PROSPECTS THEY SHOULD BE PLAYING EVERY DAY. I don't care if they lose. To eventually win they are going to have to lose. Lets lose this year, and maybe next, to get the young guys their adjustment. As I have pointed out many times on this board, the adjustment time should have started two or even three years ago. The starting 3B should be Sano. Polanco should play every day rotating between 2B, SS, and 3B with Sano at DH when he plays third. The OF should be Rosario, Buxton, Arcia, Kepler, and Santana who should also play some SS. Pick between Garver and Turner, and get them up to split time with Suzuki (and dont give him enough PA to exercise his option). By all means keep Berrio in the starting rotation. Let him work out his stuff at the MLB level. Sending him back to AAA does nothing to help him.

I totally disagree. The Twins should have had these prospects up a long, long time ago. Why go through 95 loss seasons while not developing a player? When your team is rebuilding you throw out the step by step process of minor league development. Fast tracking your prospects while rebuilding is particularly critical in the age when many of the players are drafted from the college ranks. What doing this means is that you need to be patient and understand you are going to lose a lot of baseball games. THe 1981 Twins lost 68 games in a shortened 110 game season and the 1982 team lost 102 games. You need to have patience! And you need to have a manager and coaching staff that understands that their mission isn't necessarily to win games, but to keep plugging the same guys out there and teach them at a major league level how to play major league baseball. THe 1982 season saw the emergence as full time starters/platoon players of Kent Hrbek (22), Lenny Faedo (22), Gary Gaetti (23), Tom Brunansky (21), Randy Bush (23), Jim Eisenreich (23), Tim Laudner (24), Brad Havens (22), and Frank Viola (22). This list demonstrates why a rebuilding team needs to move quick. WHile the core of the World Series team is obvious, so are young guys who did not work out. The process of developing players takes time and some of the prospets do not work out. Kent Hrbek worked out. Lenny Faedo did not Frank Viola worked out even though his 1982 and 1983 ERA were greater than 5.00 while Brad Havens did not, even though he worked over 200 innings with a reasonable 4.31 ERA in 1982. Eventually these replacements were found. A 22 year old named Greg Gagne would replace Faedo in 1985 after being called up in 1983 and 84 as a 21 year old. And most famously, Jim Eisenreich and others would be replaced in 1984 in centerfield by a 24 year old named Kirby Puckett. Kirby Puckett is illustrative of what probably needs (ed) to be done with the Twins organization. HE was drafted in 1982 and got 305 PA in Rookie ball. He played a full season at A+ Visalia in 1983. In 1984 he started the season in AAA Toledo and was called up after 21 games. If he would have been a modern day Twins player he would have done rookie ball in 1982. Then A- at Cedar Rapids in 1983, maybe being promoted at end of year to Ft Myers (A+). In 1984 he would have spent the year in Ft Myers. Because we are really careful he probably would have started 1985 still in Ft Myers but moved to AA during the season. The same process in 1986 meant finishing the year in AAA with a September call up. Maybe, just maybe, without any hiccups along the way the modern day Twins would have finally started Puckett the year the Twins made the World Series. The path forward is clear. If we believe in these prospects they need to be up playing major league baseball. If Paul Molitor cannot work with them they need to find a manager that can. They need to strike out and give up home runs. They need to lose lots and lots of baseball games. Many will not make the cut and when that becomes obvious a new prospect needs to move into his spot. If we were correct that these guys were destined to be quality major league players then eventually their experience will become valuable and this team could become a contender.

Not to continue beating the same drum, but I think that the scouting report I posted after watching Stewarts last game is pretty accurate. He has a solid fastball with great control for an A+ pitcher. As a starter he is in the upper-middle range with his fastball at 92-94. He also can keep hitters off balance because he throws the FB at 92-94, the slider 86-88, and a change/curve at 80. In the game I watched few, if any, hitters pulled the ball in play (if they pulled the ball they were way out in front of the pitch and hit it foul). With his control he gets into advantagous pitch counts and seldom gets behind. But Stewarts problem is that even the less advanced A+ hitters often make good to very good contact against him even when behind in the count. While other people may have better scouting reports than what I witnessed from Section 111, row 2, seat 5, the biggest problem is the movement plane of the slider. It simply does not drop enough so the hitters can swing at the slider AND fastball knowing that it is not going to change planes. That makes it much easier to make solid contact and the more advanced hitters are going to be able to do more with that contact. I thought his offspeed curve was adequate and probably needs just more consistency but his slider needs to have more bite. He needs to be able to throw his slider were he will get more swings and misses. IF he does that the Twins will have a #1 or #2 starter (if he stays healthy). If he cannot get that swing and miss pitch to keep the advanced hitters from making contact he will struggle to be a Phil Hughes level pitcher. Good fastball and control. Few walks. Decent ground ball to fly ball ratio. Mid level strikeout level at best. Mid-lower spot on a starting rotation.

Stewart might be a guy who needs to throw fewer strikes. His pitch ratio is probably 10 FB-7 sliders-3 off speed pitches. He throws in all of the velocity range: mid 90s - mid 80s - 80 and keeps hitters offstride. But even with his fastball the hitters make pretty good contact against him because the fastball and slider stay in the same hitting plane. Not one batter got around on his fastball or slider for that matter. But he doesnt miss many bats and he doesnt generate many swing and misses even at the A+ level. I think all or most of his strikeouts were called 3rd strikes (mostly fastballs that I think the hitter was looking offspeed). IF I am Henry Bonilla I am working on developing Stewart's slider to get more downward movement as the most critical aspect of his development. Other Miracle Notes: Raul Fernandez did not give up a solo home run. It was a 3 run shot. THere were two inherited base runners in the 7th. He came to the mound for warm ups, threw every pitch 96/97. Then faced the 9th hitter in the Bradenton lineup and threw the ball 86, 86, 88, the last pitch hit for a home run. The hitters sans Nick Gordon in the lineup leave a lot to be desired. IT is pretty clear that out of the positional players that started this game only Tanner Vavra have any chance at the next level. Maybe Edgar Corcino who was a pretty good fielding CF. Brian Navarreto is a good fielding catcher and popular with the Miracle fans (most of the Hispanic players have their own following). But he cannot hit.

Kohl Stewart Scouting Report (Reposted from another thread) Watched Stewart's start tonight v. Bradenton Fastball: His fastball is probably a major league level pitch right now. In the first and second inning it was sitting (via Hammond Stadium radar gun) at 93/94. Innings 3-4-5 it was more like 92/93 but he actually improved his velocity in the 6 and his short stint in the 7th. A+ hitters rarely pulled the ball against his fastball. His control on the fastball was impeccable. Stewart did not walk a batter in 6.1 innings, I think only had a couple of 3 ball counts and no 3-0 counts. He often was sitting in the 1-2 pitchers advantage. Slider: His slider is in the speed range of 86-88, with 86 being the most common velocity. This is his problem pitch and the reason why Stewart does not generate a lot of strikeouts. His slider is too much in the plane and his release point is too high, leaving the pitch up in the zone way too often. Sometimes he seemed to let up on the slider when he was ahead in the count and even when he had the ball-strike count to his advantage his slider was hit way too hard. Curve: I believe it was a curveball but I could not see the break. Early in the game he threw his curve for strikes and the batters reaction seemed to indicate a well thrown curve. These pitches were clocked at 79 mph and for the first 3 innings it seemed that every pitch in this speed zone were thrown for called strikes. Later in the game the 78-79 mph pitch was not as consistently in the strike zone. Stewart is a tremendous athlete for a baseball pitcher. On a sacrifice bunt play the hitter bunted between him and the 3rd baseman (who should have got the ball). The ball rolled past the mound. Stewart recovered from charging the bunt, fielded the ball, and threw the baserunner out at 2nd base. I have never seen a pitcher make a play like that. Stewart also had very quick feet on his pickoff turn. HIs pickoff throws were very accurate. Stewart was a very emotional player in the dugout. If runners reached base during the inning it impacted him. His discussions with pitching coach Henry Bonilla did not always look pleasant and I think Kohl likes to vent a bit judging from the smiles that Gonslaves gave after Stewart cooled down. Overall: While this might sound like an overstatement for a pitcher with a 2.02 ERA, the slider is a major problem. Stewart can use change of speeds to keep hitters off balance but very few hitters did not make contact against him and while some of the 7 hits against him were pretty weak, some of the outs were very well hit, particularly since he was so consistently ahead in the count. A pitcher with his velocity and command should not be hit as hard on 0-2, 1-2, and 2-2 counts like he was tonight. If the slider can be given some grip and he can keep it down in the strike zone Stewart can project to a high level major league pitcher because of his tremendous control. One issue might be that he throws from too much of a 3/4 angle and to make it to the top part of the rotation they might need to move his arm position up 5 degrees. This would help his slider and his fastball and generate more movement and less contact. However, I think they are reluctant to do this to prevent injury.

Kohl Stewart Scouting Report Watched Stewart's start tonight v. Bradenton Fastball: His fastball is probably a major league level pitch right now. In the first and second inning it was sitting (via Hammond Stadium radar gun) at 93/94. Innings 3-4-5 it was more like 92/93 but he actually improved his velocity in the 6 and his short stint in the 7th. A+ hitters rarely pulled the ball against his fastball. His control on the fastball was impeccable. Stewart did not walk a batter in 6.1 innings, I think only had a couple of 3 ball counts and no 3-0 counts. He often was sitting in the 1-2 pitchers advantage. Slider: His slider is in the speed range of 86-88, with 86 being the most common velocity. This is his problem pitch and the reason why Stewart does not generate a lot of strikeouts. His slider is too much in the plane and his release point is too high, leaving the pitch up in the zone way too often. Sometimes he seemed to let up on the slider when he was ahead in the count and even when he had the ball-strike count to his advantage his slider was hit way too hard. Curve: I believe it was a curveball but I could not see the break. Early in the game he threw his curve for strikes and the batters reaction seemed to indicate a well thrown curve. These pitches were clocked at 79 mph and for the first 3 innings it seemed that every pitch in this speed zone were thrown for called strikes. Later in the game the 78-79 mph pitch was not as consistently in the strike zone. Stewart is a tremendous athlete for a baseball pitcher. On a sacrifice bunt play the hitter bunted between him and the 3rd baseman (who should have got the ball). The ball rolled past the mound. Stewart recovered from charging the bunt, fielded the ball, and threw the baserunner out at 2nd base. I have never seen a pitcher make a play like that. Stewart also had very quick feet on his pickoff turn. HIs pickoff throws were very accurate. Stewart was a very emotional player in the dugout. If runners reached base during the inning it impacted him. His discussions with pitching coach Henry Bonilla did not always look pleasant and I think Kohl likes to vent a bit judging from the smiles that Gonslaves gave after Stewart cooled down. Overall: While this might sound like an overstatement for a pitcher with a 2.02 ERA, the slider is a major problem. Stewart can use change of speeds to keep hitters off balance but very few hitters did not make contact against him and while some of the 7 hits against him were pretty weak, some of the outs were very well hit, particularly since he was so consistently ahead in the count. A pitcher with his velocity and command should not be hit as hard on 0-2, 1-2, and 2-2 counts like he was tonight. If the slider can be given some grip and he can keep it down in the strike zone Stewart can project to a high level major league pitcher because of his tremendous control. One issue might be that he throws from too much of a 3/4 angle and to make it to the top part of the rotation they might need to move his arm position up 5 degrees. This would help his slider and his fastball and generate more movement and less contact. However, I think they are reluctant to do this to prevent injury.

One of the problems of Minnesota Twins organization and fans is that they overvalue prospects, while in the real world prospects are overvalued in MLB trades. With the Twins unexpectedy in contention for a wild card playoff birth it makes sense to trade a couple of lower end minor league prospects for a reliever that may help us maintain that position, propping up a bullpen that has been struggling a bit. If we were not in contention for this playoff spot my attitude would be different. So, if trading Hu, at best the 4th or 5th best pitching prospect AT FT MYERS alone (Stewart, Gonsleves, Jay, and Eades with Slegers, Batts, Van Stesnsel, etc all in the same ballpark) and Tapia, a long shot prospect at best, is such a terrible trade then that is hyperbole at its best. Jensen can help us this season. Hu is not going to be in the majors for at least 2-3 years and Tapia even longer. And that also means that many of the pitching prospects that are higher up the ladder all fail. In the end, accumulating talent in the minor leagues is a good thing. But, you need to evaluate them quickly, move them quickly, and if you have the opportunity to get known value for them make many of those moves. Look at how many prospects have failed after waiting for a long time for them to move through the majors. And think about this: if 2-3 years ago we could have made a major trade using Oswaldo Acia as the prime trade value everyone would be screaming what a bad trade it was. But, reality changes perceptions.