Riverbrian

The CBA was negotiated by big boys staring across the table at each other. The CBA is an Acronym for: Collective - A group representation. Bargaining - Terms and Conditions were negotiated. Agreement - Both Parties AGREED on the terms. Once the agreement is in place, the two parties will utilize the agreement to guide their future decisions. If there was an oversight or mistake made by either party during the negotiation and agreement. It is not the job of the other party to go back to table and say... I'm sorry we have a clear advantage and we would like to give that advantage back in the name of fairness. If you read the actual CBA... Service Time Management is tacitly encouraged. The "Good Faith" covenant is all they got and it seems to be working (a little) because JT Realmuto wasn't sent down to the New Orleans Baby Cakes to gain the extra year while the Marlins are clearly out of it. The Owners clearly won the negotiation and the MLBPA failed to predict the result of analytics taking over every front office. The biggest issue is going to be peak value and years of control. Once the front offices decided not to give out long term contracts to decline phase players and they collectively did that this off season, in my opinion, this was a paradigm shift that will lead to the MLBPA to insist on players reaching free agency at peak value, therefore at a younger age. The Owners won't want to give that up and I'm prepared for a strike or lockout or something that will ruin my summer. The radical solution is this: No first year player draft at all. Just like I can choose to work wherever I'd like as long as someone will hire me.

No doubt. Bottom Line... It's always the people who hire the people.

In order to get that job in Texas, Boston or the Cubs. I'd assume they will have improved us along the way. If that it the case. Congratulations are in order and I wish them the best in Texas, Boston or the Cubs. If Texas, Boston or the Cubs, hire them and the Twins are still struggling. That will also be great news because we will be ready for a new approach and both Texas and Boston are in the American League and that would be helpful as well.

I question weather we should count on Rosario, Polanco and Berrios. We tried that counting on people stuff this year and it didn’t work out.

I don't know if Buxton would have caught that specific ball. The ball wasn't in the air that long. He's fast no doubt but that looper looked like it required a whole nother level of fast. If Buxton would have caught that ball... it would have saved us three runs. Which would have prevented a crooked number, Which was my way of agreeing with you. Peter Bourjos was 24 before he turned 31.

I'll also add that I'm sure the pitchers loved having Buxton in CF saving their butt on occasion. I've heard that the pitchers preferred to pitch to Bobby Wilson. Offense was what carried us last year. Buxton and Wilson helped kill our offense this year (not just those two) to a 20th ranking in team OPS and those defensive preferences led our pitching staff to 23rd in Team ERA. I'm not sure I understand what was accomplished in the end other than we ended up selling at the trade deadline.

I agree with you. I think I understand what you are saying. I believe crooked numbers are often the difference between winning and losing. I also believe that extra outs or stolen hits are major factors in producing or preventing a crooked number. When Byron Buxton makes a catch that no one else can make it is hard to quantify exactly what he prevented by taking away a triple with nobody out and turning it into one out with nobody on. I personally believe that each time is potentially big. It's all a matter of sequencing of course but I do agree with you. I've seen it many times while coaching 15 year olds and while watching the Twins nearly every night for going on a hundred years now. From Bartman to Ervin Santana not getting that 3rd strike call against Didi Gregerious before he homered in the 1st inning of our playoff game last year. Each moment that is gained or lost to create an out can be (often is) full of consequence. However... Peter Bourjos is having a hard time finding a job because he just couldn't hit enough and Buxton has got to hit to avoid being Bourjos because the routine defensive play that nearly all can make is the norm in the major leagues.

Oops.. editing it now.

I know this is a Falvey-Lavine discussion and talking about the previous regime tends to take things off the rails but in my opinion... The previous regime dealt Falvey-Lavine a 3 of Diamonds and 8 of Clubs. Therefore... It's relevant to the discussion. I'll add to your point. I'm not that concerned about the playoff wins. You gotta make the playoffs to get a playoff win. I have two serious points of contention right now and my hope is that Falvey and Lavine will be the people who fix it... pronto. 1. Since Target Field opened April 12, 2010. The Twins have the 2nd worst record in baseball. 650 Wins 791 Losses for a 45.1 Winning Percentage. Only the Marlins have a worse record over that span. 2. Since Target Field opened... we have not produced or acquired a SUPERSTAR!!! Not one. Rosario or Berrios might get there but they haven't got there yet in my opinion. Those two things together should be hard to accomplish simultaneously . The Marlins have been worse but they did manage to produce Giancarlo Stanton, Jose Fernandez and Christian Yelich. Bad records means high draft picks, bad players means more opportunity to locate a different player. It took a concentrated commitment to mediocrity to achieve this. It took a front office saying we have Trevor Plouffe, we are set at 3B, we don't need to find anyone better. It took consistent failure to develop a 1st round pick since Joe Mauer in 2001 or maybe Denard Span in 2002 to accomplish it. Maybe we can count Hicks in 2008 or Kyle Gibson in 2009 as an example of development, but we only really had one decent year of Gibson and we really didn't get to enjoy any of Aaron Hicks playing well. Speaking of trades, It took lack of activity in the trade market to accomplish it. The Twins have made 54 trades since 2003 and that is the 2nd lowest. They committed to mediocrity, didn't try to improve it and were unable to develop anyone who could surpass it. The reason we don't have playoff wins is because we don't have wins to get us to the playoff. With the 2nd worst record in baseball since Target Field opened. This roster should have been fully stocked for Falvey and Lavine to work with. It wasn't.

Give him time. My wife is high character and she didn't talk to me for a week when I accidentally mowed over the tulips.

Agreed

I'll have to learn to survive without your help. I'll bow out gracefully and let your above paragraph be the final word.

That is also my fear. I love Joe... I'm building him a statue but we can't hand cuff him to the new Morrison again and say this year is going to be different.

I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been done by a blogger. I'm surprised that you can't find a published list of Service Time markers with each demotion and call up on the internet. If I was the MLBPA... I'd be writing a check to Fangraphs or Baseball Ref to make sure that light is shed into the dark corners. A little public exposure just might help the next round of negotiations.

We both have shown possible explanations involving the Rockies and we could probably play that game with every team. You are right none of us have had the privilege of being a fly on the wall so who knows. Hopefully, we can find some common ground when I say that the Twins may have a reached another level with this move but it is still shades of the same old song. Justification is in the eye of the beholder. You won't justify it and that is your right. Myself... I had already justified it before the move happened. I'm on record saying that "I wanted the year back" multiple times before the announcement. Regardless if you approve of the method... Byron Buxton has just increased in value overnight. That extra year has value and if Byron supports that value with the play we have been waiting for... The trade return gets real big.

I agree it's a complicated discussion and I also think that Chief is right when he says that not everyone would have handled Byron Buxton the same way and I believe that is hard to find precedent because the circumstances surrounding Byron are unique. However, I'm not sure if you are correct assuming that it usually happens at the beginning of the career ala Kris Bryant and then tapers off. I believe the Kris Bryant cases are hit you between the eyes obvious and are usually more publicized as a result but I'm guessing you are going to find larger doses of it a year or two down the line. Players get called up and sent down and called up again more often than the rare player who starts his career and never sees the minors again. My theory is that you are going to find lots of cases where a player could have been called up on June 1st only to have a player with less potential called up because the front office can see on the spreadsheet that they gain the extra year by waiting 8 days. When that happens, it is rarely publicized because not many are watching the service time clock. The Rockies might call up a Matt McBride instead of Charlie Blackmon until Charlie clears that mark. I'm doing calculations by hand because I can't find a website that will break it down for you and if there isn't a website doing the work... who is going to do the work. The front offices are, the agents are, but is the general public doing the math so they can see how the hot dogs are made? Just a theory

No... You provided alternative possibilities to my possibilities. . Neither of us have proven anything. If we had proof, we could probably get compensation for that proof from the MLBPA or MLB Commissioners office.

I also want to be very clear. That I responded to Kelly Vance asking him to provide a team that doesn’t treat players like cattle. I even acknowledged in the post that cattle was his term not mine. You responded with the Rockies. I responded with potential service time decisions made by the Rockies. Even said it doesn’t prove anything. You responded that I didn’t prove that they were treated poorly and that was never my point. For clarity: My point is that all teams make service time decisions all the time. If they don’t they are making a mistake and the CBA basically encourages teams to strongly factor service time into their decisions.

Colvin and Cuddyer also played 1B and Helton was injured quite a bit. Also, Gonzalez and Fowler player 131 games in the OF. You also don't mention that the Rockies played Andrew Brown and Eric Young Jr. in the OF more than Charlie Blackmon. The Rockies were 45-72 and when Blackmon was called up. Eddie Butler was on the 40 man. I'm not making the claim that any team is treating anybody well or terrible. I am claiming that all front offices are making service time considerations. You are making the claim that the Twins are not treating players well. (Buxton).

Oh I'm looking.

If I'm Joe... I've come so far with such a short time to go. I wouldn't waive those 10-5 rights for any amount of money... And any amount of money isn't going to be paid to even come close to a last temptation for Mauer. If I'm Joe... I'm retiring as a Twin, It will be the only team I play for! This is extremely rare in this day and age and admirable. If I'm the GM... there is no way I would trade Joe and there is no way I even suggest it to his agent and there is no way that I would even ask Joe to check the temp of the water. If I'm the GM... I'm starting to think about where his statue should be placed outside the stadium and also making sure that the sculptor makes it taller than the tiny Calvin Griffith statue.

I'm doing it by hand so my math may be a little off but I'm close. Charlie Blackmon: 2011 June 7 - Contract Selected by the Rockies - MLB Debut July 7 - Charlie broke his foot running the bases at Turner Field in Atlanta and is placed on the 15 day DL. July 15 - He is transferred to the 60 day DL. Since the injury occured on the MLB Roster. He Accrues Service time. Running Total 0.114 2012 Charlie begins the season on the DL. April 13 - He begins rehab with AAA Colorado Springs April 14 - He is optioned to Colorado Springs Running Total 0.121 Charlie isn't recalled to the Bigs until August 18th and he remains on the roster until the end of the year. Running Total 0.167 Doesn't prove anything but the timing was certainly unfortunate for Charlie as the Rockies gain an extra year. BTW... Charlie did sign an extension... At age 32, 6 years/106 Million dollars that includes a player option for the final two years... not a club option -- it's a player option that gives him the right to opt out... Not the club. I'd sign that to at that age. He didn't get a hometown discount. Carlos Gonzalez signed for less than Logan Morrison signed with us. Then there's the case of Eddie Butler... Eddie was top ranked pitching prospect much like Byron Buxton... More so than Charlie Blackmon. Eddie Butler 2014 - Running Total 0.55 2015 - Eddie Butler is sent down to Albuquerque on August 14th and isn't a September recall. He remained healthy and never spent any time on the DL... as a matter of fact, on the very last game of the year for the Isotopes. Eddie Butler was the starting pitcher. Running Total 0.144 Nolan Arenado Nolan at the end of this year will be at 5.155 because the Rockies decided to start Chris Nelson at 3B to begin 2013. Nolan was called up on April 28th, Chris Nelson was DFA's April 28th. I believe the Rockies said that he needed some time to work on his defense. This was a good move by the Rockies because he would be a free agent this year and he has already told the press that he is sick of losing. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2018/07/01/nolan-arenado-rockies-losing-free-agency/749138002/ All teams watch the service time when making decisions. If they didn't, they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

I’m sure you are correct and I have no idea what teams have the reputation and I’d be willing to bet that player B feels differently than Player C and D and E. Player D just might not care at all and player E might be troubled because his brother was cut by the organization in A ball. In the end, I’m pretty sure all 30 teams are going to act on their best interest and the players will act on their best interest. Any team that acts on the players behalf first is going to have Trevor Plouffe playing 3B for them until they are 45. I’m not worried the Twins will be able sign the next Ricky Nolasco type to an FA deal and I’ve always been worried about the Twins being able to sign a Manny Machado type and Buxton doesn’t change that.

Is this an ethics lesson that I'm receiving? Give me an example of a team that doesn't treat them like cattle. Cattle being your definition not mine.

I’ll have more time to better explain myself at lunch or tonight. I’ll just touch on one point briefly. Yes the NL has to make more in game adjustments. The Dodgers and Cubs are different. They are flexible with starting lineups and all teams have injuries to adjust to and that is why flexibility is important. The bottom line is this: It’s enivitable. The majority of teams need to get out of the 80’s. Starters don’t go as long as they used to which increases the bullpen use. On top of that bullpens are changing which also increases the need for bullpen use. You need more bullpen slots to accommodate and this leads to fewer position spots. Teams have no choice and some teams are stubbornly clinging to the way it was done before. It’s inevitable. The Twins might as well go all in now and catch up to the Dodgers and Cubs.