Riverbrian

Once you rub the Twins Fan off of yourself for a moment. The joke is actually kinda funny.

My Dad will not pay 10 bucks for a hamburger. He just won't do it. Even if I offer to buy him the 10 buck burger, he consistently refuses. My Dad has more than enough money to afford the 10 dollar burger, he did well enough in the stock market to purchase his own hamburger business outright if he wanted to but he just won't pay 10 dollars for a burger because he thinks 10 bucks is too much for a burger. There are a lot of people in this world with this sort of mentality. With no inside information at all, fairly or unfairly. I have always assumed that Terry Ryan was like my father in this regard and believed it was possible that our budgets had more to do with Ryan's sensibility than some sort of directive from the Pohlad's. Part of the reason I came to this assumption was watching how payroll went up under Bill Smith after replacing Terry Ryan and then how payroll went back down after Terry Ryan returned. Granted that didn't prove anything because the team situations were different in terms of competitiveness but it was enough for me to assume the possibility that it just might be Terry Ryan. Now that Terry Ryan is gone... Payroll has gone up again... so who knows... maybe my assumption is plausible and therefore maybe we can spend 150 Million?

MLR... I'm gonna step in here for a second. Couple of things to keep in mind. 1. As Moderators we not only try to restrict the severity of attacks on fellow TD members but we also try to restrict the severity of the attacks on the front office. It is much harder with the front office since they are directly in the line of fire but we try. 2. The admins have been writing a series of coordinated different approaches to the off-season. Tom wrote about the abrupt change approach, Seth wrote the Status Quo Approach and Nick wrote the Big Spending Approach. When you consider the coordination of each providing something different. I don't think you can assume that any of them are 100% behind their game plans. Nick for example is very intelligent and I can read his article and assume that he knows the difficulty of signing Patrick Corbin but he's listing it because that would be ideal pick up for the Twins... in his opinion... under the context of... spending your way into contention... which is always an option for any team, even if it is a terrible idea from a business standpoint. 3. It's OK to respectfully counter. Just be careful how much cold water you throw on it. These forums are for the fun of the discussion. Join in the fun.

Not only did the Dodgers send Puig down to get his head straight. They also sent down "one time uber prospect" Joc Pederson down to get himself straight

To me it all depends on how you view this current “wave”. If you look at them as inexpensive members of the 25 man roster that give you the payroll space to add talent in addition to them. The doors of possibility open up for you. They don’t cost much more than Ryan LaMarre does. There is no need to trade them. Just roster them and ask them to win a job instead of being handed a job come hell or high water. If you want Sano to get his act together introduce him to your new acquisition Nick Castellanos and make him earn his AB’s.

Hands are over-rated! http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4885432/Kicker.gif

That's what I thought you meant. I agree with most of it. The off-season is for loading up the roster and I want them to load up the roster this off-season. It's much harder to fix your roster once the season is started and everybody has found homes. I'm not looking for piranhas either but... Where we may differ... if we get piranhas and they in contention... I'm bringing them some more food in full support. I will never look at a stacked Red Sox roster and say... We can't compete in a 20 game sample size... no sense in trying. I understand the desire to not mortgage the future and I don't want it mortgaged either but when I look at the prices paid by the Brewers this year to get Moustakas and Schoop... I don't think you have to.

(Fist Bump)

Steve is correct, It does matter... however... how much it matters is the question.

Both of you seem to be saying the same thing so I'm replying to both. I hope not to be misunderstood... I'm all for loading up the roster with as much quality as you can in the off-season to increase your odds of going all the way through. I am not saying that we should just settle for Jake Cave and pass on Pollock and just try to piranha your way through, all the way to the finish. I've lost count on how many times I've typed... give me 25 guys who can play so hopefully, I'm believable when I say it. Ultimately, I want my Twins to look like the Astros and Dodgers currently look on paper. But, if you guys are looking at a team in contention in July. A team full of piranha's and it's Jake Cave leading the way... if you are both saying we shouldn't bother trading a prospect to acquire Justin Verlander because the Astros are just so loaded. If you feel there is no point because the roster doesn't compare to what Boston is putting down on paper... therefore let's not sacrifice our future to take a shot when the team you currently have are earning that shot... We are in 100% disagreement. The Playoffs are 20 games max. You just got to go 12-8. The Orioles could go 12-8 in their current state at any time and are capable of going 12-8 at any time against the best of the best or the worst of the worst and it just might be Renato Nunez who hits 6 home runs at key moments that leads the way. You never who is going to step up or if the paper tigers on the other side are going to experience the bad timing of stepping down at the absolutely wrong time. We just got done watching the Brewers take the Dodgers to Game 7 with a rotation of Chacin, Miley and Gio Gonzalez. A rotation that completely shut down the Rockies before doing decently against mighty Dodgers. Was it the Rockies just not hitting as a team at the moment or did Chacin and Miley just kinda find it at the right time? I don't know but it kinda happened to the Dodgers as well and things like this happen every single year. Meanwhile Kershaw and Ryu fronted the Dodgers rotation and finished 3 wins and 5 losses combined while allowing 25 runs in 49 innings. These paper assessments don't mean much in a 20 game sample size. So acquire some additional help if your team has a shot. Energize them the best you can. You never know what player becomes Eovaldi or what player becomes Darvish but you should try. Never pass on a playoff race because you think you know better. Load up in the off-season... see what happens... If you are contention... load up some more. If you are not... sell off the expiring contracts for more farm options. And even if you don't load up in the off-season and somehow, someway, through voodoo, crazy hops or found light-switches your scrappy team is in contention for a playoff spot... never ever ignore it. The players will let you know which direction you need to go and if they are telling you by their Wins and Losses to go for it... Join them. As for this off-season... I see absolutely no reason to look at what we have and look at what Boston, Houston and New York have and then just throw in the towel to focus on 2020 instead. If I was the Orioles... Yeah... I'd sell off and kick that can down the road. The 2019 Twins should enter the season with plenty of pitching depth, players with talent who are cheap, controllable and could collectively find the light switch, with money to spend and minor league talent that can acquire additional talent... plus... what should be another year of a weak AL Central. Let's go Twins!!! BTW... To avoid any confusion... I'm not saying we should trade Royce Lewis for David Freese to support the team. I always remain hopeful that the front office has some common sense along those lines when it comes to supporting a team.

Reed is out of options. I support the team in any efforts to find talent wherever it may be found while at the same time worry a little because that’s a 25 man spot that could be used on the next Mike Trout. Here’s to hoping that Reed is given the opportunity to prove himself and become the next Mike Trout.

We agree that we should produce the strongest roster possible to increase the odds of surviving every stage of the playoffs but it sounds like we might disagree a bit on the approach. I believe that if that scrappy team finds themselves in contention for a chip and a chair and a chance, it becomes the obligation of the front office to support those scrappy players at the trade deadline. The players are the primary indicator if Jake Cave is leading us to a playoff berth. We shouldn’t be sitting here saying we have no chance because Jake Cave is not Mookie Betts because once the playoff starts It just might be Willians Astudillo who wins the MVP like Steve Pearce did while Jake Cave hits .210 like Mookie Betts did. A wild card team needs to go 12-8 to win the title. The 2018 Baltimore Orioles were capable of going 12-8 if they were given a chip and a chair and a chance. The playoff are a small sample size. I think it starts in the off-season. Load up the roster and let the players decide who is and who isn’t leading us onward and adjust accordingly. It’s a two step process Step one - Qualify for the playoffs Step Two - Compete like your life depends on it for possibly 20 games. You will never find me saying “we don’t have anybody who matches up to Clayton Kershaw so let’s not trade prospects for renting Someone who MIGHT be the guy who catches fire.

I agree with you... Ryan Pressly worked out... Johan obviously. But... we can't afford to hide the guy anymore. If you want to dive into the rule 5... Dive into it... Grab the guy and play the guy. If the attitude is let's absorb him for a year for a pay day in 2021. Pass. If the attitude is... I think he could contribute to the team this year. Go Ahead but the odds are against it so Jeremy and John can have that roster spot back and utilize it as they see fit.

I can still hear the echoes of years past with a large contingent saying just wait until Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Berrios get here. #1 Ranked Farm System in Baseball and all that. Now they are here and we have plans being made to wait until the next wave. The Baseball Gods have a twisted sense of humor. It can't be denied.

I was alive and have vivid memories of 1987. I remember the Cards in 2006 and the Giants and the Royals. Any team that makes the playoffs can win it and have. In not just baseball but Hockey and Football as well. If we keep trying to win the game on paper first... we might as well give up now.

I believe this is where we are unnecessarily talking past one another. I also agree 100% with your last sentence of this paragraph. The idea of sticking outfielders at 3B or 2B also makes me worry. I also believe decent defense is critical to preventing the crooked number and the crooked number creates losses. When I suggest Rosario for infield play... It's a "For Example to illustrate the benefit of the concept" but I have no idea if Rosario can play infield adequately enough and that is important. The benefit comes when he can actually do it. He doesn't have to be Nolan Arenado but he can't Bill Buckner on a loop either. I have said multiple times that I don't know if he can do it or not but it's not important to the discussion because he is just being used as a door way to the outer world of what I think is an important conversation. However... weather Rosario can or can't doesn't kill the dream or the possibility, you just consider the next possibility. It is still something to strive for and not something to be forced. In my opinion the Twins have never striven for it and the only examples that I can think of... were forced. Take Sano for example. Sano to RF was forced because we signed Park and loved Plouffe. I fully admit I was for the Sano in RF experiement because of my strong belief in the value of flexibility. However, It didn't take long for me to change my mind after watching him play RF and I wanted that particular genie stuffed back in the bottle... but that had more to do with how wrong the choice of Sano to RF was and not the idea of it. To bring all of this full circle... After watching Sano become our shining example of moving a player on the fly... I begin to seriously question just how bad we are at making these assessments... and once I'm at the point of seriously questioning just how bad we are at making these assessments... It's easier for me to believe that they may be wrong about Rosario... and just maybe he can play some infield. I'm gonna need to see it for myself now... and that’s when I start talking about whatever the hell they were doing with Astundillo because I could see for myself that he can play the catcher position. All in All... We agree... It's something to strive for and not something to be forced but I am obviously at the point where I feel... It has to be striven for and it has to start right now with the construction of the 2019 roster because I can't tolerate another year of suffering the incredibly bad play from our every day starters without an alternative to turn to.

On this we agree 100% But here's something else for you to ponder. When I mention Betts getting some reps prior. Ramirez playing 2B and 3B... Kepler at 1B. Isn't that an attempt to develop the asset to be sought? Isn't waiting until Donaldson and Moustakas to be acquired the pushing of the domino or the crash coursing of Mookie Betts the eve of the world series... the very definition of implementing the strategy by force?

At the granular level. The Red Sox had 4 quality outfielders and playoff expectations that would hopefully involve the World Series and playing without the DH in a National League Park. Playing the national league style game not only involves the loss of the DH but double switches are part of the strategy and that makes the ability to move a player to a different position necessary to be able to utilize all of your options. Instead of working out Betts on the eve of the World Series to see if Betts at 2B is possible... they could have given Betts some reps at 2B earlier when they were 100 games ahead in the standings. Instead of a crash course with all the chips on the line. It's not that difficult to understand. The Indians were also a team heading to the playoffs with the same goal of a world series and games to play in the national league if they achieve it with no DH and Double Switches to ponder. Jose Ramirez has already proven that he can play both 2B and 3B yet they kept him at 3B exclusively. Despite having Yandy Diaz performing fairly well plus Lonnie Chisenhall with 3B experience and Jason Kipnis spending significant time on the DL. I'm not saying that the Indians knew they were going to acquire Josh Donaldson but I am saying that Joe Maddon would have played Ramirez at both positions throughout the year. The Brewers... I did not say... I would have played Travis Shaw at 2B earlier but in hindsight... Yeah... Why not... All reports are that he performed fine at the position and if he has the ability to play the position decently which was only discovered because the team acquired Moustakas... It could have been considered earlier. That flexibility is valuable for matchups, hot and cold streaks and injuries that you can't plan for. Counsell played Jesus Aguilar at 3B for 5 games because he was stuffed to the rafters at 1B when Thames was healthy. That's the granular level that you are trying to trip me up with. But all in all... you are missing the larger point. My logic is different because I've been looking at this all summer from all kinds of different angles. Here's the larger point: If teams can make switches like these on the fly during the heat of a pennant chase... Why can't the Twins do the same in the cold of not being in it. Why do the Dodgers do it all year long? Why do the Cubs? You claim the players being switched are not good at the position. Were they? Grab your telescope and take a look at the sky. Don't just throw Galileo in prison for heresy. The Earth is revolving around the sun at Wrigley Field and Dodger Stadium. I'll make it simple... Go get 13 Pitchers who can pitch... 12 Position players who can play. Once a team does that... they will have no choice but to adopt position flexibility to accommodate.

1. You did it again. I just stated that Shaw was an example of a team moving a player to another position in a very recent quote to you. I gave him his own paragraph to seperate him from My thoughts on Mookie Betts. I didn't suggest that Shaw should have played 2B earlier this year but you say "Boston and Milwaukee". If Milwaukee can move a player in the heat of a pennant race... Why can't the Twins when we are not in a pennant race? That's my point about Shaw. 2. You are the one saying "Noticeably Inferior". Even worse than that, you are saying that I am saying "Noticeably Inferior" "Several Times". I'm not saying "Noticeably Inferior". I never have said "Noticeably Inferior" or anything that approaches the same meaning. If I've never said it... I certainly haven't said it several times but you are allowed to type that and get likes for doing so. There is no difference between what you are doing here and the push polling political surveys that I'm getting on my telephone every day. Don't do that again. 3. "So when you suggest things like that" That is how you wrap up your point. You are suggesting things like that!

It wasn't a criticism of not playing Shaw at 2B. It's another example of how the teams staffing their lineup to the hilt make moves that like that in the heat of the pennant race and how teams make these virgin moves despite being in the heat of a pennant race. Mookie... Honestly it never would have occurred to me... I wasn't paying a lot of attention to Boston but then I read that they were working him it out at 2B to see if it was a possibility and I saw the logic but then questioned the preparation so that was a criticism. They got Benetendi, Bradley, Betts and Martinez who can all play OF and somebody is going to have to sit in the national league city if they make the World Series... Of course... they didn't play Betts at 2B but thinking about it... If you envision yourself World Series possible and I assume that the Red Sox were built to consider themselves World Series Possible.... Yeah... They should have tried something during the year. I do think that makes more sense then to try and slam it together quickly on the biggest stage. It turned out alright though... they won. Drilling down the granular level like you are though... Overall... you are missing the larger point. Shaw got moved to accommodate Moustakas and did so in a pennant race. Kepler can play a little 1B to accommodate Cutch/Jones. Yeah... Let's play Austin at Catcher and Sano at SS and Polanco at CF. Keep trying to reduce me to the lowest possible level you can.

My Fault I suppose. I know Carrot Top has a hard time being taken seriously when he tries to discuss his brilliant ideas for solving the water crisis in California.

It's not that complicated. It means prepare for success and prepare for failure. If the Twins sign Bryce Harper, Jones, Cutch or Pollock. If Max Kepler and Byron Buxton find it and become what they could be and Eddie plays like he played this year... and we got 4 outfielders playing good baseball. Move one to another position to find playing time. That's preparing for success. If the Twins sign Bryce Harper, Jones, Cutch or Pollock. If Max Kepler and Byron Buxton find it and become what they could be and Eddie plays like he played this year AND Tyler Austin who is out of options but given the 1st base job is hitting .156 in May... Move one of the 4 outfielders to 1B and that's preparing for failure. Or if Austin gets hurts for a month... move one of the 4 outfielders to 1B and that's preparing for failure. If the Twins sign Bryce Harper... Tyler Austin is doing fine but Buxton is still swinging at outside sliders and hitting .156. We got an Outfielder to try and Buxton does sink us because all the eggs are in the Buxton basket. That's preparing for failure. If Rosario is capable of playing a decent 3B... Now we got options in case Sano snaps the titanium rod in his leg but you got to plan for it by signing that 4th outfielder like Adam Jones or whoever. The way the Twins have done it for years... Is not sign Bryce Harper or Adam Jones because they have Rosario, Buxton and Kepler and they would call it good, set the roster and hope that Rosario, Buxton and Kepler perform and stay healthy. If they die... we die... and my summer is ruined. When one gets hurt we are sifting through the scrap heap for the Motters of the world to play meaningful innings. Just sign Adam Jones and let the players compete with each other and give me a manager like Maddon or Roberts who can figure it out. You become bullet proof by over staffing and this is how the Twins can follow the Brewers model and you can't over staff unless you have alternative places for players to play in case we have multiple players performing at the same position... Prepare for Success. No one can predict who is going to struggle and who is going to get hurt and where the need will be... Prepare for failure. I don't ever want to see 25 man roster spots wasted by players the manager is reluctant to play and even more so... I don't ever want to see Logan Morrison hitting under .200 and not having to check the lineup card. This doesn't have to be a hard concept to understand and it doesn't mean that Byron Buxton has to play SS. Just look at the Cubs and Dodgers and watch them move the players around for match-ups, for health reasons, for hot and cold streaks. Kris Bryant in RF one day and 3B the next. Javier Baez playing 2B, 3B, SS. Ian Happ at 2B, 3B and OF. Zobrist wherever and whenever needed. This is what I've been doing and this is why I'm trying my damnedest to pass it along to everyone but I can't get past... "every" player. Has the Cubs defense suffered as a result? Has the Dodgers defense suffered as a result? I don't know, and I'd love for someone to take the conversation seriously enough to provide some defensive data but I can't get past people thinking that Vargas should learn to play CF to take the conversation seriously enough. I do know this... The Dodgers and Cubs are in the playoffs every year so it ain't hurting them too bad and the Dodgers just survived more injuries than perhaps any team in baseball this year. And I do know this... Players move to new positions successfully when necessity demands it. I'm just openly questioning why we wait until the demand demands it. I've been sitting here all summer watching a couple of teams pull it off while the rest of the league hasn't figured it out.

"Every"? Earlier I quoted myself to you to specifically illustrate that I don't mean "every" guy. I still get "every".?

That's because when I make those caveats they get ignored as respondents end up focusing on something more sensational in my posts... such as "it's OK to play Kepler at 1B". (Gasp). I get responses like "Why not play Kennys Vargas in CF". or "Paul Molitor was responsible for 9/11 and I get marginalized in seconds using a ridiculous extreme, miles from my point. The Below quote was posted by me, in the same post, that triggered your reply and our discussion. If you see flexibility as an asset to be sought. We agree 100% The Twins haven't been seeking it and that includes as recent as 2018 and they gotta start somewhere. I've taken a lot of angles to point out relevant examples from today to bring the issue to light. From our playing time distribution to the Dodgers playing time distribution, from Nick Castellenos never playing 3B again to the curious case of Willans Astudillo to Max Muncy to David Bote to Josh Donaldson joining the Indians and Travis Shaw bouncing across the Milwaukee infield to Mookie Betts being considered for 2B play in the World Series. My intention is to be constructive and get people to notice what is happening in Chicago, Los Angeles, Milwaukee and Tampa Bay just to point out that Logan Morrison didn't have to play every day and Trevor Ploufffe didn't have to play every day in 2016 either. Did Joe Maddon have to endure "Why Not Play Kyle Schwarber at SS when he decided to play Kris Bryant in the OF? Sadly... Yeah... He probably did. Suggesting something different is the slow boring of hard boards and anyone who seeks to do it risks losing their soul. I've clearly lost my soul in my efforts to point out something different.

If Rosario can't play Infield decently... Of Course. We don't know that he can't. But if he can't... then he obviously isn't an option. Was he moved to OF because he wasn't any good at 2B or was he moved to the OF because Brian Dozier was in front of him? We did hear a few years ago that Polanco was moved from SS in the minors because he wasn't any good at it and here he is our SS. Polanco... We got somewhat of an idea. Yet he can't be moved? Grossman we got somewhat of an idea. Yet... He gets to play defense. If the concern is the thought of some sort of defensive compromise taking place? I'm saying we don't know the depth of that compromise, if there is one and also that we make defensive compromises all the time (example Polanco). If you know for sure that Rosario playing IF is a guaranteed defensive liability and that Sano and Forsythe are way better at it. Then I'll take your word for it and I won't consider it ever again but I will be curious how you know and I will keep looking for someone else. For the record... You are right... I am 100% against signing 9 1st basemen and playing them all over the field. Believe it or not... I think defense is important and I'm misunderstood if I'm giving that impression.