Riverbrian

Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows. I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it... I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation. The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying). I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better. Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

Me too! But future playing out is likely only going to lead to more questions! With every tick of the clock!

Barring any acquisitions, my guess is second with Carroll slotting in first (unless Hicks grabs that spot). How sure are we that Carroll is even going to start? Obviously utility guys get a fair amount of time, and maybe even especially so with this year's roster of young, unproven starters in the infield...but I find it a little hard to imagine them going with a leadoff guy who isn't expected to be in the linuep most every day. I'm really quite curious to see how the batting order plays out. Jeez Dog... I'm quite curious to see how the rest of the off season plays out first.

I'd go with Mastro to start the season... Hicks and Arcia up after the Arb clock thing assuming they keep progressing in the right direction and its a whole new ball game after that.

If it was my call... I'm not doing it... One thing has changed for me tho... Before... I wasn't very interested in Middle Infield. I'm now much more interested in middle infield... Go overpay for Sanchez... Or Jackson or whoever you like Mr.Terry Ryan... Sign a cheap OF'er for a year if you want to delay Hicks a little and jump into the Middle Infield pool if you like. We got the money for all of that. Umm... Not Escobar or Drew. I still don't want attitude problem guys no matter what they OPS.

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin. You'll be fine once you see Worley get us out of the 2nd inning in his first start RB. I'll be alright... I've been looking at the Pitching Staff in the majors, AAA and AA and flat out concerned. I'm still concerned but the addition of Meyer... Worley and May is needed and I feel better today. In October the pitching staff was about as bad as I could ever imagine at the upper levels. December 6th... I have reason for hope... The rest is patience and I have that, As for Hicks... I've been waiting for him... I like what I read and looking forward to eyeballing him. I've always said that if Hicks comes up and outplays Ben then good for us. I also like Mastro... I hate trying to spell his name but I like Mastro... This could be a big opportunity for him to take advantage of... With so many players it just comes down to opportunity, Some never get it and some have a very short window. This could be a short window for Mastro and I'm happy for him.

The Red Sox may pay the entire salary but the entire salary would lessen the return in my opinion... And if the return is lessened... The reason to move Mauer is also lessened. If Money is freed up in a Mauer deal... In my opinion... There is nothing worthwhile to spend it on at the moment. We got enough money to spend on what is currently out there with Joes salary factored in. if the Red Sox want to take the salary and give us a real nice package of players... Goodbye Joe... I'll miss you... I've loved watching you play.

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.

Or the "do the Phillies have a competent Front Office?" question can be put to rest.... Just because Barry Zito got 100 million several years ago doesn't mean that was his "value" Actually I'm pretty sure that Zito getting 100 million means his value was 100 million at that time. This really can't be disputed. The value of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter if you wouldn't pay it or the Mariners wouldn't pay it. The value can only be established by what someone will pay. The value side of the discussion is over. The market is clear... Now if this is a future projection discussion... That will last forever all the way into the future until Ben doesn't have a uniform anymore and I will never be confident enough with any player to participate in that discussion. To Ben Revere... If you are reading this... Thank You... I appreciated your effort and ability every day... Even when you screwed up on pccasion. I believe you will have a nice career ahead of you if you keep playing balls out like you did here in Minnesota. Go get em in Philly... I hate that team a lot less now.

MLBTR is reporting that a "good" prospect was also included. If true, that is ONE HELL of a haul for Revere. Worley and May??? lol... Brock... I just won the Revere Value argument.

Who did we get in return??? That's when I'll find out if I crapped myself.

On this topic... My interest meter is pegging. I'll be sad to see him go but all for it if it brings back a decent arm. Edit: Just checked MLB Trade Rumors... They are saying it's done... Revere to Philly... They haven't revealed what we got in return.

The Tone of Words can also be easily misunderstood. It's easy to mistake condenscending tone for simple disagreement. Sometimes the condescending tone can be real and sometimes it not. It's really hard to factor in the emotion of the poster and the emotion of the reader. They don't always match up. Lots of strong opinion and different viewpoints make for spirited and even overdone debate.

Interesting indeed? I'm serious... I would buy any book that published every conversation.

Absolutely. But the problem with Revere is that he'll probably fluctuate between a .650 and a .750 OPS. His absolute ceiling (unless he starts putting the ball in the air with more authority as he ages) isn't very high to begin with and his floor makes him a platoon or fourth outfielder. I'm not against holding on to him for one more season (because Hicks isn't ready yet and Arcia could regress) but there's a significant risk in doing so. If there's a solid offer on the table now, the Twins should take it and patch together an OF for half a season while Hicks gets some AAA experience under his belt. Brock you have been one of the more reasonable anti(for lack of a better word) guys. I wont argue that fluctuation range of yours. Looks reasonable to me. I get what you are saying. 100 OPS points is nothing statistically is what I'm saying(and yes i know the formula) and it isn't just the fast guys. Try to project what you should sign Napoli for? I'm not slamming Denard Span... I will miss Span terribly... but he ain't a power hitter either and his arm is also sub par. The differences are shades. Yet one is approved and the other is not. I refuse to let a couple of doubles and a couple of walks get in the way of a developing 24 year old who has not failed yet. Metrics are a major part of my job and I have seen too many people chase their tails while thinking they had the tail the whole time. Lots of that going on.

We gotta trade Revere now... I've been convinced... I've been reading the posts and the consensus has convinced me. Revere is obviously at a sell high point and should be moved because his OPS isn't high enough to be more than a 4th outfielder And... because last year was a fluke he really can't sustain that low OPS... if he can't sustain that low OPS his value is gonna turn to **** so we should move him now... And fast guys are the only ones who get hurt. Ok... Diving back into the pool I'm more comfortable with... It is preposterous to say he will obviously improve... It is also preposterous to say he obviously won't. It is also preposterous to say he will obviously stay the same. I won't make a definitive projection because its baseball but I have a pretty strong guess that his production will fluctuate. Like everybody else!!!

I was thinking that we should consider tearing this thing down back in May. It don't sound like TR was going to go that direction as the season progressed... so I thought... Ok... Let's get some pitching and give it a shot in 2013. Now I'm back to... I don't know... someone tell me where I'm at...

I gotta agree with Ox. Add the toning it down on the field to avoid injury and therefore get to the bonus... in that light the true incentive of the contract incentives takes a negative twist.

I agree... Although I have condensed my hope to just one arm. I do agree. This waiting for something to happen is hard. It would be nice if I could be multiple fly's on multiple walls providing no one has a fly swatter.

I think the chance of getting an outfielder in return is nearly zero. Pitching is the obvious thing to pursue, followed by MI help. Morosi is the source of this rumor. I'm kinda wondering about Morosi right now. His finish of the tweet saying the "Twins might be looking for a CF in return" is strange speculation. I imagine if a team wants Ben... That means they don't have a CF to trade unless its a young one. We got plenty of young ones. If a trade does happen... One thing is for sure... You and I will have a gauge on Bens true value at this moment.

3. His arm sucks for center. He'll be sucking up most of the balls in the outfield, but he has no arm and teams will run wild. . Do you see what you did Puck!!! This runners running wild thing is running wild. lol. Talker.. I'm ok with a deal of Revere if it brings back pitching. If the rumors are true... I don't think Terry Ryan was knocking on the door asking... Someone or someone's must be reaching out to TR here but who knows. Mastro can play this year... I like Mastro and would love to see what he did with an everyday gig. A decent outfielder can be picked up cheap until June or July when Hicks or whoever clears the arb thing. If the trade brings back an OF'er... The reason for that would allude me.

For a pitcher Ok... For an OF'er... That don't make much sense.

This is probably where I'm at, too. I'd like to have somebody for at least 4 years honestly, but I'm not sure who I'd want to give that to. I'd love Greinke or Sanchez, but I can't imagine the Twins outbidding the rest of the league for either. After those two I'm not sure what to think. You've got older guys (Marcum, Dempster) or inconsistent guys (Jackson) or hurt guys (Haren). That's perfectly normal options for free agency, but it's hard to fall in love with any of them. Yeah... It's like shopping in Warroad... The stores only have so much to offer. Still... It's where the shopping must be done. I wonder what Terry thinks of the winter meetings. Meetings and phone calls with people all day... Agents... GM's... Reporters hounding you for information... Mostly talking with folks who want to take advantage of you at every turn. From the outside it seems like a fun exciting time but I think for A GM... It would be a stressful time. I'd probably need an IV filled with scotch to wind down.

For clairification on my diatribe. My Comment to you Puck was simply my correction of Puck's everybody and their brothers assertion. This is just my opinion but I believfe it's possible that some are assuming this because Ben's arm is sub-par. I hold no ill will against you persoanlly... you are a smart guy and I enjoy your posts. My Comment to you Vodkadave was only in reference to your 1st grade level comment. I also enjoy your posts and hold no ill will against you personally. I don't disagree with your sentiments entirely on Ben... You are right on many things about Ben. I think wrong on some but none of us are right yet... I think it's possible that we look at ball players differently. The Part about players reading this site... Was not directed at you. It was directed to anyone who forgets or doesn't realize it... I typed a lot of words and didn't properly seperate that section of my long post. The only thing I took personally was the 1st grade level thing.

I know Jokin... You and I have been on the same side. Like I said... I'm trying to back down. My Revere man crush is getting a little over developed with each and every post. Honestly I'm not trying to build a shrine to him... He's just a young ball player... It's just that some comments allude me.... I'd like to back-er down because its just making the division deeper... But... Just when I thought I was out... They pull me back in. This time it was Pucks comment "everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't take on real MLB arms". Although you have supported Revere... Your post in response to that seemed to agree. So I said "you guys" in response but all in all... I've been happy that you and others have been In support. If I was the only one.. I'd be like Will Farrell running down the street in The movie Old School. I'm not and at the end of the day... We just got ourselves a difference in opinion. What we think and what some others think. Puck's comment was flat out false and it just piles on the Ben Revere negative stereotype being built and I didn't want it to just let it get left there... Like it was remotely true. His arm is sub par but any impression that runners are flying around the bases on that arm is wrong. There have been times and there will be more times when the arm will give up a base or a run. However... Sub par arm does not mean he would do better running the ball into the infield and trying to tag the advancing runner. Ben can still throw it faster then even players of his speed can run and if he has the ball in his hand. The runner ain't going. I have also seen Ben catch the ball at the wall and throw it to first base on a hop. Granted... more air on it than most but let's not give the impression that players are heading to third at a disturbing percentage. No evidence to support that claim and its a false generalization. i honestly don't like being this convicted on a player because there are no guarentees in baseball. Hamilton can sign for 100 million and hit .220 the rest of his life ... this Revere argument is starting to make me sound like I'm guaranteeing his place in Cooperstown and that isnt the case. i just think hes been good baseball and there is value that some dont appreciate because they like some skill he's lacking I'm guessing. I also realize that most of the detractors don't hate Ben but if this keeps up... Their convictions being challenged may end up causing more and more dislike. I have a big mouthed opinion like many on this site and I ain't afraid to express it. However... People can check my posts. Typically... I have no problem saying "I don't know when I don't know". I go to great pains to say "I think" "I believe" in my posts to make sure that Its clear i'm expressing opinion. I try to be self deprecating because I've been wrong plenty of times and occasionally I'm pretty dead sure about what Im saying. On the other side of the coin... We have Vodkadave saying "he will never" which is pretty definite in and out of context. I also didn't really appreciate the Vodkadave comment that you and I have a first grade knowledge of baseball and statistics and then saying he didn't mean to be harsh... also like Will Farrell in Talladega Nights with the all due respect line. Anyway... that's just his style so I'm trying to let that go... But... Obviously haven't yet since I just brought it up again. BTW... Dave... I'm 47 years old ... I've been breathing in an unhealthy amount of baseball for almost 4 decades. From playing to coaching to umping to spending beautiful summer nights inside watching and reading and rainy nights outside trying to get a field ready to play. There are plenty of people who know more about the game in the whole wide world than I do including a bunch of folks on this site. It is after all... Just a quirky passion of mine. But I think I'm past the 1st grade level. Lets not confuse my 1st grade punctuation level for some kinda of baseball knowledge deficiency because we disagree on something. As for understanding metrics. OK... If you say so. I hope to get to 2nd grade someday. Be patient with me. One last thing... I don't know if it occurs to the posters of Twins Daily. But I'm guessing that Twins players read this forum. I'm sure some stay away from it and they are smart if they do... but it's not far fetched to think that some are drawn to the "what are they saying about me now". Insecurities that we all have. In my opinion... It's Ok to have honest discussion of skill sets but keep in mind that this is the internet. These ain't private discussions. The nasty mean comments lack taste and a bunch of other social graces.