Cap'n Piranha

I think there's a misunderstanding of what tanking actually is. Tanking is not starting 22 UDFAs for the whole year. Tanking is not releasing productive players under long-term contracts for cap savings. Tanking is not deliberately calling run plays against loaded boxes. Tanking is understanding that a team is more than 1 player acquisition cycle away from being truly competitive (any by competitive, I mean competing for top playoff seeds, not hoping for help in week 18 to snag the 7 seed). To achieve that, tanking teams choose not to sign players in FA, because they want to find young, cheap players. Tanking teams trade veterans at the height of their value, particularly if they are about to become more expensive, or pass their prime age. Tanking teams target value in the draft, and are willing to pass on high floor prospects for high ceiling ones instead. The Vikings have done basically none of this for years, which is why the team hasn't made a Superbowl in almost 50 years, and has played in only 4 conference championship games in almost 40 years. The Vikings could do this, and they could get the whole organization on board, if the Wilfs were honest about what's going to happen. Tell KAM and KOC that their jobs are safe for 2025 and 2026, as long as specific milestones are being hit (such as acquisition of a long-term high level starting QB for example).

KAM does the drafting. I don't know how this is debatable. But just for fun, let's run some scenarios. Let's say KAM is just acquiring the players his coaches want. That means he's a high-level functionary serving no real purpose, and could easily be let go with no impact to the team's talent acquisition capabilities. So if that's true, then definitely fire KAM, and bring in a GM who can actually have an opinion on football. Let's say KAM is just trusting whatever information is coming from his player evaluation department. Since outside of the 2024 FA class, player acquisition has been terrible, that means KAM either doesn't realize he's getting bad information, or simply doesn't care. So if that's true, then definitely fire KAM for either being bad at, or not caring about, his job. Let's say KAM is drafting well, and the coaching staff is just incapable of developing the players KAM gets them. So if that's true, then everyone on the coaching staff, including KOC should be fired for the complete inability to nurture young, drafted players available to help the team. So you tell me which of the options you think is accurate--KAM is a do-nothing adding no value to the FO, KAM is incompetent at managing a FO, KAM is apathetic at managing a FO, or the entire coaching staff should be fired.

Yeah, I don't know if he understands what tanking is.

If he was claimed off waivers, Thielen had no part in the decision to end up in Pittsburgh.

Per usual, you don't know what you're talking about. If the Vikings lost all 3 non-Cousins games in 2023 (NO, ATL, LVR), they finish 4-13, tied for the second worst record in the league with WAS, NE, and ARI. The first tiebreaker for draft order is SOS, with the team having the worst SOS getting the higher pick. Even when updating for the additional wins for Vikings opponents (and therefore, a stronger SOS for the Vikings), the Commanders retain pick 2, the Vikings jump to 3, NE drops to 4, and ARI lands at 5. The Vikings inability to properly tank in 2023 cost them 8 spots of draft position in one of (potentially) the best QB drafts in history, and a guy who looks like a 15 year NFL starter. When you also consider that with pick #3 the Vikings don't need to try and accumulate assets for additional #1 picks for trades that never happen, and the roster might have way more depth than it currently does. I said it then, I'll say it now; the Vikings winning those 3 completely meaningless games in 2023 set this franchise back for years.

Abbott and Costello.

Interesting thoughts. The one question I would have on widening the playing surface is the physical ability to do it. How many NFL stadiums can realistically widen the field by another 3-5 yards (the minimum to make a difference I would think) without having to undergo major renovations to remove seating? Keep in mind that even though I'm sure most stadiums more or less have that room, do they have that room when taking into account the necessity to maintain a workable sideline?

The problem with running a smashmouth style of offense is that it lends itself to a lot of 3 and outs--one negative play on 1st or 2nd down, and you're in trouble. It also requires consistently excellent play from multiple blockers, and even if it works, because the game will be shortened so much due to lengthy drives, turnovers become absolute killers. To top it off, most fans would find it to be pretty boring--12 play, 75 yard drives don't tend to excite the masses like 50 yard bombs. In short, the resources and dedication required to make it work are probably so high, for such a thin margin of advantage, that no team is going to do it.

Some team will probably decide yes. I think said team will need to decide who their next top pick who plays QB is within 2-3 years.

This really is a very good article. The one thing I would add is that I wonder if the situation of the QBs being compared to JJM is being taken into account. On paper, JJM came into a nearly ideal scenario; great coaching, stacked skill positions, veteran expensive O-line, upper tier defense. I'm not sure what more could have been done to set JJM up for success, unless the argument is that one or more of the aspects I listed above is not true. If it's all true, then for JJM to fail this badly means he truly is just that bad right now, and barring significant leaps forward, he simply cannot be part of the QB room next year.

Definitely beneficial. Having a good cheap QB is the greatest advantage in football. But every single team would gladly prioritize good over cheap, which is why even the best offensive minds in the business (McVay, Shanahan, Reid) have spent big money on the QB position. Certainly if cheap was even close to good in importance when it comes to QBs, one of those guys would deliberately create a carousel, where they would trade their good QB for a treasure trove of picks, and use that to further build up their team around whatever new cheap QB they drafted in the prior year's draft. The fact that none of them do that tells me that NFL teams very much prefer the bird in the hand a good but expensive QB is.

This is what I was wondering earlier in the thread. If the mechanics are off, when/why did that happen? More importantly, why has it not been fixed?

Yeah, this is a huge problem. I'm willing to accept that JJM needs time to adjust to the speed of play in the NFL--that's logical. But the one thing he should not be struggling on right now is the playbook. He had all last year to do nothing but learn it. He should know it forwards and backwards. We're now saying he can't do simple things like remember two plays at a time, plays he should know in his sleep? I disagree that the process was right no matter what. Getting a QB was obviously the move, but only if you had full faith and confidence it was the right QB. It seems pretty clear, at least right now, that JJM was/is not the right QB, and the Vikes should have either done what it took to land Maye (which I'm convinced KAM was trying, ineptly as it turns out, to do), or pursue QB through another avenue.

This is not accurate. The important thing is to have a good QB; if that QB can be on a rookie scale deal, that's an enormous bonus, but is not the goal (at least it shouldn't be). The top 8 teams in SB odds currently all have veteran QBs on FA deals or extensions, and all but 3 of the Top 16 teams have vet QBs. The ideal is to have a good rookie scale QB, but the next best thing is to just have a good QB, and there are way more good QBs than there are good rookie-scale QBs.

The thing that bothers me about JJM is this; if the issue really is that his mechanics are off, it opens up a lot of possibilities for why, none of which are good. If JJM had bad mechanics in college, then at least one of the following has to be true KAM and/or KOC didn't realize he had bad mechanics KAM and/or KOC realized he had bad mechanics, thought they could fix them, but haven't been able to KAM and/or KOC realized he had bad mechanics, tried to fix them, but JJM either can't make improvements, or simply won't. If JJM didn't have bad mechanics in college, then that means at least one of the following has to be true KOC tried to change his mechanics and screwed him up JJM got into bad habits, and KOC has been unable to correct that JJM got into bad habits, and has refused to fix what's broken So the conclusion is that either KAM totally whiffed on his evaluation, KOC is incompetent, or JJM is ruinously stubborn (or some mixture of the three). That's all bad times.

I'll close this thread by saying that Gunnar's "KAM is actually good at drafting" is 2025's version of my 2024 "I'm not sure KOC is actually an elite offensive mind". I'd like to think that I'm being a bit vindicated this year, so we'll see what happens with Gunnar's hill he's dying on. I do empathize--it's not the most fun when the entire board disagrees with you.

This is one of the more flabbergasting things I've ever read. Would you also say "That lawyer wins more cases than me, but he's not a better lawyer, he just wins more cases"? Or "That hitter has a higher OPS than this other hitter, but that doesn't mean he's a better hitter"? The point of drafting is to acquire cheap talent for your team. The Packers undeniably have acquired more cheap talent via the draft than the Vikings, which is why the Vikings have had to fill 75% of their roster with post draft players they signed off the street. Unless you're telling me that KAM's preferred way to build a team is to spend on past prime (or soon to be) players, rather than not spend on ascending players.

1 - KAM has 1 1st round pick currently playing like a first round pick. Turner, despite everything you throw out there, is not playing like a guy that based on the draft capital to acquire, was a borderline Top 10 pick. JJM is currently playing like one of the worst QBs in football, and a guy that probably shouldn't even be a backup. That's 20% hits currently. Could that change in the future? Sure, both Turner and JJM could turn into competent players, or even stars. But we're not here to discuss what KAM's draft record might be in the future, it's what is his draft record now, and right now, it's bad. 2 - Ingram was a bad day 1 starter, to the point the team had to pull a guy more or less out of retirement. Twice. That's not a hit. To be a hit, the player has to actually be accretive to team success, and Ingram was not. That's 0% hits. 3 - Blackmon is not a hit simply because he got good once he went somewhere else. He was bad/injured while here. Whether Blackmon failed here because he wasn't developmentally ready, or the coaching didn't work, or some other reason, KAM's job is to draft players that help the Vikings win games, not players that improve once they move on. Felton was so bad that the Vikings panic traded a 4th for a washed Thielen only days before the season started, because he clearly couldn't be trusted to be a #3. Again, maybe Felton gets better, and becomes a Nailor; but Nailor was a 6th. 3rd round picks who only play on ST are busts. That's 0% hits. 4 - Again, you shouldn't need to spend 4th round picks on ST players. They took Ward despite having Smith, Metellus, and Bynum already on the roster, and having drafted Cine just the prior year. Feels silly to draft a guy who best case scenario was a 4th safety (assuming KAM knew Cine was done going into 2023). That's 0% hits 5 - I'll give him some credit for TID--a 5th round rookie playing on 20% of the defensive snaps is acceptable. It's not great, but it's acceptable. That's 20% hits. 6 - Nailor is acceptable, Reichard is an emphatic hit. That's 30% hits. 7 - I'll agree that LDR is a good pick, and Jurgens is an acceptable one. That's 50% hits. Add it all up, and KAM has hit on 6 players out of the 27 he's drafted. That's 22% hits, and means he adds 1.5 hits (which by the way, doesn't mean star or even solid regular, based on round value) per draft. Assuming 25 starters, that means it would take KAM 16+ drafts to acquire enough hits to fill out just his starting roster. Also, KAM has only had 4 drafts, so the 7 first/second round picks is only one less than he would have had if he hadn't moved around at all, and just stayed put. Worth noting that he's also only currently hit on 1 out of his 18 picks in the first 5 rounds; again, this could change, and if the change is JJM and Turner becoming pro bowlers, then it's probably ok that the hit rate only goes up to 3 out of 18, because the positional value is so great. But by any metric that actually values contribution to the 2025 team, KAM is just awful.

The report did mention that he threw passes with his left hand, but opined that action appeared to be in jest.

I don't think it's accurate to say anyone is calling JJM a bust. People are saying JJM is not playing well. Here's an excerpt from a Bill Barnwell article (linked below) that sums it up pretty well. "Has McCarthy played well? No. He's completing less than 54% of his passes, throwing interceptions 5.6% of the time and taking sacks on over 12% of his dropbacks. Any of those stats would be disqualifying as an NFL starter. Having all of them together is disastrous." I think all of the "anti-JJM" folks would readily agree that there's still room for him to get better, and potentially quite a bit better. But it feels like the "pro-JJM" folks are completely unwilling to address how bad JJM has been, and that it's not just a product of not having enough reps. In the second article linked below, there's a quick comparison of JJM and the other 5 round 1 QBs from 2024, which details that in the first 4 games of each player's career, JJM is the least accurate and is throwing for the fewest yards/game. That's an issue, since while JJM didn't get live reps in a game last year, he did get the whole year to get into the playbook, and familiarize himself with how the NFL works; he also is in most likely the best situation of all those QBs too. There has to be acknowledgment that despite some pretty significant advantages, JJM is performing worse than his direct peers did in the same selection of games. As bizarre as it would be to call JJM a bust after 4 games (and to be clear, that's not happening), it's equally as bizarre to say JJM is undoubtedly going to be an elite QB (which has been said by at least one poster in this thread). Barnwell Article 1st Year QB Article

I read yesterday he had his right (throwing) hand wrapped, supposedly to ensure no new swelling. He did not throw with that hand with reporters present, but who knows what happened while they were out of the building. Regardless of what you think of him, this is a bummer, since everyone can agree the one thing JJM needs is more live reps.

Totally agree. Everyone on this board knows I'm about as anti-KAM and anti-KOC as they come, BUT that comes in the context of I'm approaching my mid-40's, and I've never even seen the Vikings in a SB, let alone win one. Based on what I've seen over the past 3+ years, I don't think either of them is at the level to change that, and I don't want to waste another 3-5 years putting teams on the field that need to get lucky to make it to the divisional round; I'd rather tear it down to the studs and build something from an actual good foundation. If I was 24? I'd have no problem letting KAM and KOC have a few more years to see if they can level up, but given that I'm not, and it's IMO at best a 5% chance they both find another gear, I say move on. I'd rather go 4-13 for 5 straight years if that's what necessary to build the foundation of a legitimate SB contender than make the playoffs for the next 5 years, but as a WC that never is truly an elite team. Both KAM and KOC seem like nice human beings, and generally decent at their jobs, but those are two things that don't win Superbowls. Also, not being capable of winning a SB is not a black mark on someone--they're both far more qualified to do that than I would be. But in the profession they've chosen, the results are what matter, and they are not delivering. All that said, I would be very surprised if the two of them are out either after this year or even next year. Assuming the Vikings finish 4th in the North, their schedule sets up pretty well for a bounce-back record-wise next year; they get to play the AFC East and NFC South (games against NYJ, MIA, CAR, NO, and ATL should all be very winnable), and will get non-rotational games against probably NYG, ARI, and TEN. That's half your schedule that a competent team should go 7-1 against, and just going 3-6 in the other games gets you to 10 wins and a good shot at a wild card. So long story short, I'm resigned to the Vikings getting through probably year 7 of the KAM/KOC regime before the Wilfs realize it's not working after the Vikes miss the playoffs for the 4th time in 7 years after the 2027 season, and attempt to do a reset. Hopefully they'll do it right this time, and not pretend that a team that's bad enough to fire GM and coach can somehow actually become elite in one offseason, but I'm guessing the Wilfs feel even more pressure than I do to win now

It's sample bias? I don't even know what that means in this context, and I'm guessing you don't either. Pretty much every person on this board, other than you, is looking at the entirety of KAM's draft record, and calling out the reality--KAM has failed to provide starting caliber talent at an acceptable level. Go look at the Vikings depth chart on defense; not a single starter was drafted by KAM (Pace was UDFA, but he comes off the field in nickel). On offense, it's only a little better at 3 (4 if they go 11 personnel); that's at best 4 drafted players starting out of 24 starters (if you count 3rd WR/2nd TE and nickel DB/4th LB as 2 starters each). So simple math says he's finding one starter a year in the draft. You're saying his result are "probably pretty normal", which suggests you've done no analysis, and are therefore falling back on your own confirmation bias to just assume that KAM is fine. In a conversation on if KAM is good at drafting, giving him credit for bringing in players via other routes than the draft is not relevant. The anti-Kwesi crowd is hardly insane to point out things that are objectively true. The pro-Kwesi crowd (which at this point seems to be just you) is so in denial about this, and for the life of me I can't understand why. Is Kwesi paying you to post nice things about his drafting on this board? Are you actually Kwesi using a burner account? Yeah, KAM has had fewer picks in round 3 than normal--and who's fault is that? Of right, KAM's, for trading those picks in foolish trades for bad results. KAM has been GM of a team that has gone 38-22 in his tenure; that's pretty much the only factual thing you've posted in this thread. The Vikings have undeniably been pretty good in FA during his tenure, but as has been discussed in other threads, much of that has to do with Flores doing the scouting and telling KAM who to sign. I personally want more out of my GM than to be a paper pusher. Your final sentence is nothing more than a grab bag of nonsense. You're accusing people who are painstakingly going through his drafts and the results of ignoring draft results? How is looking at his draft results to determine if he's good at drafting looking at his drafting in a vacuum? What development are we missing in the draft? How many players are clearly better in year 2 and 3 right now? No one is ignoring injuries, and they're not KAM's fault, but it doesn't change the fact that his job is to draft productive players and injuries are a part of football (or did you think that only Vikings draft picks get injured?) The draft is the single most important tool to build a team. It's not the only one, it might not even be more important than all the others combined, but it is the single most important thing a GM can do to build a winning team. Teams that draft well are almost always competitive. Teams that don't draft well might pop up for a season or two, but at best struggle to remain competitive year in and year out (like the Vikings), or are just flat bad year after year. Your continued insistence that the draft is not that important, but also KAM is a good drafter is just not at all grounded in reality.

Plenty of people pass on "once in a lifetime opportunities" based on the timing not being right, or the situation not being right. Coaches often get second chances at HC jobs, so I understand taking that shot. GMs do not. If you fail as a GM and get fired after 4 years, you're pretty much done in football outside of being a special assistant or contributor to a website. When the once in a lifetime shot is one time only, plenty of people will want to maximize that.

Man, so much wrong with this. 1--Cine wasn't exactly setting the world on fire before he got hurt. You can't just give him a mulligan for that, even if it's not his fault. Ingram is not on the team, and was not good when he was. Blackmon is not on the team, and was not good when he was. Nailor had a nice game on Sunday, but in 4 years and 49 games, he's touched the ball 63 times. He's played 1,112 snaps, and only been targeted 97 times. The only thing making him a good pick is that he was a 6th rounder. Forgive me if I want more out of my GM than an ability to find serviceable 3rd WRs in the 6th round. Turner is a bust because of where they drafted him, and how much they gave up to do that--they essentially traded a mid-1st rounder for the privelege of using another 1st rounder to draft him. He has 12 pressures in 9 games, which puts him 49th in the NFL, and the only reason he's that high is because there's quite a few guys with 10 or 11 that haven't played 9 games, and Turner got a bunch of starts with AVG out he otherwise would not have gotten. I'll give you Jackson has promise, Reichard is a great kicker, and Addison has been a quality receiver (who will probably be traded), and some other guys are rotational pieces; that's a good drafting record? 4 years, and it's possible all we'll have to show for it is a promising guard, a great kicker, and some rotational pieces? KAM's so-called plan is also terrible--if the idea was to load up on veteran, expensive players to push for a title, why did he draft a developmental QB, and then double down by letting a sure-thing quality QB walk? His cap management is also terrible--he spent 2 years freeing up cap space, sure...and then immediately spent it all on foolish extensions and multiple FA signings to the point where the Vikings are dead last in cap space for next year, and will potentially (depending on where the cap lands) need to cut/restructure deals just to sign their draft class, let alone improve the team in FA. If that's cap management specialization, I'd hate to see what happens to someone who's bad at the cap 2--JJ looks good? He's worse than all qualified QBs in completion %, Int %, Rating, On Target % and ANY/A, 26th in Y/A, 32nd in success rate, 30th in Y/Game, 35th in sack rate, 33rd in Bad Throw. He's legitimately one of the worst QBs in the NFL, including other young QBs like Dart, Ward, Gabriel, and Penix. He was statistically worse against the Ravens than his full season numbers, other than a better Int rate and Sack rate. You seem to confuse arm power with arm talent and even beyond that QB talent. I'm not saying he can't get better, or even become elite, but this idea that he's on his way, and to use your words, "get there quickly" is just an asinine statement. 3--Agree there's no hard evidence that the team is getting upset with JJM, but the way JJ acted on Sunday was concerning. As for the culture--when multiple people are saying the team is soft and mistake-prone, and not just on this board, that doesn't seem like a good culture. 4--The Vikings had the easiest schedule through week 6 of any team in the NFL. They now have had the 7th hardest schedule in the NFL, but are projected to have the 6th hardest the rest of the way, so there's no schedule relief coming. JJM missing games was actually a good thing for winning--the offense scored more points with Wentz at QB, and Wentz was statistically better than JJM at pretty much everything. I honestly just am at a loss for your continued to refusal to live anywhere near reality as regards the Vikings. Being optimistic is one thing, but you're the living embodiment of the "This is Fine" meme at this point.