Western SD Fan

As a subscriber who had both Rockies and Twins for years, the Rockies stayed on all cable and satellite channels this year even with the possibility of streaming through MLB.TV. I also see now that they are finally agreeing to streaming in-market, they moved me to out of market. Oh, the $1.000's of dollars I could have saved if they did this years ago. 🙂

According to Sportrac, we have an estimated payroll of $114,7 million before considering all of the pre-arb and arbitration players discussed above. I can immediately wipe off $18 million through buyouts of Margot and Farmer. Margot's buyout is paid by the Rays according to Sportrac, so there really is no reason to keep him. If we take the numbers presented in the article as accurate, that adds $33.2 million. We are already at $129.9 million for 16 players before we pay our pre-arb players and FA scrap heap signees. Let's assume we fill out our roster from our farm system or scrap heap signees making about $1 million each, which adds another 10 million, which we need to cut somehow to get back down to $130 million. This is where the FO needs to get creative. I agree with the suggestion that we sign and trade Castro. I really want him on the team, but he's unfortunately an expensive luxury when I could have had someone like Solano, who signed with SD for around the league minimum. I felt that Farmer was a luxury for this year's team even before his performance. Dobnak is earning $3 million to take a spot in St. Paul. It's clear that he has been passed up by Festa, Matthews, and SWR and needs to find a way to get rid of his salary likely through a trade. Another question would be how much do we have faith in Camargo? If so, maybe we can find a way to trade Vasquez and get rid of the $10 million on the books. Maybe we can sign Grandal for a $2-3 million contract. Those moves, if possible, clears $19.2 million and gives us a chance to sign some players to potentially upgrade our bench, bullpen, or even leave a little meat on the bone so we can make a deadline trade since it is apparent by this year's deadline that this payroll amount is a hard cap with no wiggle room.

Since there have been a few posts that claim that we don't bring stats to our criticisms, let me quote myself in an earlier post on this thread 🙃. Maybe Sportrac isn't an independent enough resource. Most of us that have been dedicated fans for years understand that a small/medium market team is going to have good years and rebuilding years, and payroll should reflect that. As @Fire Dan Gladden commented earlier, perception matters. Ownership had opportunities to show the fans their commitment to the team by spending some of the Bally contract they received or by making a more meaningful trade at the deadline when it was announced that qualified teams (I am assuming the Twins would have qualified) could receive up to $15 million to jump start the trading deadline. Ownership did virtually nothing. I see a lot of comments related to how Tampa Bay, Cleveland, KC, and Baltimore can compete with lower payrolls than the Twins. Some of us may have forgotten how many years that KC, Detroit, and Baltimore had spent in the wilderness before they finally came out of their respective rebuilds. I don't believe any of us who are realistic fans expect us to compete in payroll with the top dogs. We do expect that they don't hamstring the organization when there is a playoff window open. If ownership had come out after announcing their one-year deal with Bally and stated that they were going to give Falvey some "flexibility" in payroll to shore up our needs, I'm not sure we are having this much of a conversation, at least I wouldn't. As a small/medium market team, we have to hit on player development, scouting, coaching, and managing and spend when we have the opportunity to go for it. If not, then organizational changes need to be made or what is the purpose? Perception matters.

Any current media company, bank, or food production company would fit your mold here. I'm not here to argue the reasons why, just answering your question. As for the ownership, they have been the only constant since Target Field has opened in 2010. Again, if you refer to Sportrac for MLB payroll ranks since Target Field has opened (2011 is as far back as they go), you get the following ranks: Average: 18.43, Mode (common ranks): 17th, 19th, and 23rd, and Median: 19th. They have consistently operated in this range since the current FO has taken over and does not appear to change anytime soon. If I was a MN resident, I would be livid as ownership lowered payroll after 2012 and has been happy in the doldrums ever since even though MN taxpayers have to foot the bill after being promised a competitive team if only, they built them a new stadium. I, like many others on here at TD, were incredibly frustrated when ownership made a statement about "right-sizing" the payroll. At first, I was understanding since the Twins were potentially losing a significant part of their revenue in RSN money. I just watched a YT video from Brodie Brazil pointing out that an average of 23% of a team's revenue comes from this source. Given the cut in payroll, it almost looks like a similar amount. Then they resigned for Bally for somewhere between $40-$50 million (as estimated by sources). I once again had hope that they would spend some of the money they received for reupping with Bally, but no. They had another chance at the deadline when it was reported by MLB that they would allocate up to $15 million to teams to try to get some trades moving. While it is unknown how much the Twins would have received from this allocation, it's safe to say they could have done more than they did at the trade deadline and not hurt their own payroll allocation. There is definitely plenty of blame to go around for this year's collapse. The players didn't perform in the situations they needed to. The manager and coaching staff inexplicable decision making and clear lack of communication to the players when it was apparent that they were heading for a collapse. The FO failure to properly shop at the scratch and dent store of players. Ultimately, the buck stops at ownership who failed all of us by not giving us the tools to believe in this team and now the direction of the organization. We have all seen the letter penned by Diamondbacks ownership for the Jordan Montgomery signing and even Jerry Reinsdorf penned a letter to the White Sox fans taking some of the blame and promising to do better, and he is the most tone-deaf owner this side of John Fisher (maybe we have a new owner to claim that title 🫠). This response to the season is John Fisher-esque stating to his team's fans: "We tried". I tend to disagree.

This may all come down to what Santana is willing to take to resign. If it is reasonable, maybe you resign Santana with the possibility to trade him during the year for some pitching help. Even if Kirilloff comes back injured or not playable, you have Miranda, Julien, and likely Castro coming back to fill that spot. I'm assuming your infield will be Miranda (Santana and/or Kirilloff ), Julien (Lee), Correa, and Lewis with Castro filling in as the super utility man that he should be and not a regular starter. I would also like to see Lee start in St. Paul to get his confidence back up before coming back to the MLB club unless he really shows improvement in spring training that they can't keep him off the roster.

I had to take a little time off from commenting on this site not because of the fans but because the team left such a bitter taste that I just needed to decompress from the season for a few days. I've caught up with all of the articles and comments. With that being said, lets bomb this thread with everyone's favorite: Lies, damn lies, and statistics! Since we love analytics (insert sarcasm here), lets analyze Rocco's performance. Year Record Payroll (Rank)* Avg. Age (Rank)* PH AB's (Rank)** Platoon % (Rank)** Salary on IL (Rank)* Days on IL* 2019 101-61 125.2 (19) 27.3 (18) 66 (25) 59.7% (6) 28th 629 2020 36-24 59.7 (19) 29.5 (1) 28 (20) 62.1% (4) 8th 389 2021 73-89 121.4 (17) 28.5 (12) 97 (17) 55.5% (11) 20th 1,713 2022 78-84 150.4 (17) 27.0 (27) 104 (7) 52.9% (18) 12th 2,363 2023 87-75 156.1 (15) 28.8 (7) 162 (3) 56.3% (9) 13th 1,980 2024 82-80 131.0 (19) 28.5 (11) 134 (1) 62.5% (4) 11th 1,641 * taken from Sportrac **taken from Baseball Reference Note: Payroll rounded and in millions Comments from looking at this table. I attempt to analyze the number of roster permutations by the platoon %. I couldn't find a site to better rank the days on the IL so I had to settle for Salary on IL (supposing that the better players are getting paid more and that affects the on-field performance, obviously results may vary). I was surprised that 2019 was not an older team because I believed the narrative that Rocco didn't have to do much to manage this team. This team was by far the healthiest team we have had. Additionally, Derek Shelton and Mike Bell were probably better bench coaches than Jayce Tingler. Sadly enough, I believe this year with the juiced balls and the three true outcome approach doomed us into believing this was the future of baseball. When MLB adjusted rules for pitch clocks, three batter minimum, and larger bases to encourage stolen bases, we didn't adjust. As noted in different interviews with Lewis, Miranda, Lee, and Larnach, they tried to tweak their swings in the minors to encourage home runs and launch angle over average, hits, productive outs, or other fundamentals such as base running and bunting. Payroll has been a huge issue on here where ownership has cut the legs out of the FO from making the moves we needed to build a better team that could withstand the injury bug that seems to have plagued the Twins since 2021. 2023 looks like the outlier in spending and they seem to like to be somewhere between 17th - 19th. While ownership needs a share of the blame for not giving the FO the funds to build a better team, it also looks like the FO has not done a good job shopping in the scratch and dent section. Rocco seems like he really likes having the platoon advantage at any cost given his ranks in platoon % and PH AB's. We have seen this in the last couple of years where the opposing team would have an opener, and we completely upend our lineup when the bulk guy would come in. When we needed that pinch hitter late in the game, he wasn't there because he was already subbed out. Again, I was surprised that we were older than average the last two years given the number of rookies that we have had to depend on to get through the year. That probably says more about the age of our rookies when they join the team than the number of appearances rookies had to make. 2019 is looking more and more like an outlier. This could be due to better coaching (James Rowson, Wes Johnson, Derek Shelton), Nelson Cruz as a "player-coach", just being healthy: a common quote is the best ability is availability, no need to pinch hit as we had built massive leads, and finally outside forces liked juiced balls and rule changes to encourage pace of play and not just the three true outcomes. We all have been taught the age-old lesson of not putting all of your eggs in one basket. It seems that Rocco and Falvey have put too many eggs in the analytics baskets and cannot adjust to the changing landscape of timely hitting and stolen bases. And, as other posters have noted, did we know that Francona was available?!? If not, then Falvey should be fired. If we did, then Falvey should be fired for not taking a chance to upgrade managers!!! Just think if Tito could have convinced Carl Willis to come over from Cleveland and work with our pitching staff.

Ok. What do you think about the speculation of Jax wanting to be in the rotation? I think it would be a mistake but I’m curious of other’s opinions.

I actually heard booing on the TV when Martin jogged over to retrieve the double and let another run score.

I hate to say it. But I can see them doing the same thing with Paddack as they did this year with Farmer and Margot. They overpaid for their services and have to put him out there to justify the contract. I wish they would put Paddack in the bullpen as a Brian Duensing type, but it won’t happen.

I’m glad I’m missing all the bad play. Maybe it will end when the Colorado FB game is over and I watch the Twins game.🫣

I live on the very frontiers of what is considered Twins Territory (western Dakotas). With that being said, I am not able to make it to Target Field very often, typically only one weekend per year as it is an over 8-hour drive. I've always lived in this region and have been a fan since I could remember. Until this year, my entire adult life I have spent purchasing cable packages to include the Twins as that is one of the few ways I can support the team from here. I finally was able to get Fubo to watch this year and it was a good thing I did as the other cable providers in the area had the same blackout as Comcast did earlier this summer My frustrations have been over the years, the team has not invested in Twins Territory like they expect us to invest in them in order to create a team that we can support. Years ago, the winter caravan used to go all over the Dakotas and now they barely make it to Fargo or Sioux Falls. Another item has been the lack of inviting successful Twins Territory youth programs to Target Field for a game or a weekend. I point to this year's LLWS participant Sioux Falls, SD team. I don't remember seeing an invite to Target Field after their finish. How do you expect to foster the next wave of fans (income) if you don't take the effort to reward those players (and parents) to the game? When watching the LLWS and they focus on their favorite players, very few from the Sioux Falls team listed Twins players as their favorites. When I was their age and had a favorite team, I always wanted to be like my favorite player on that team. All of this rambling seems to point to a systemic failure of the organization to properly market the team they have, settling for mediocrity as other posters have stated, and willing to sign oft injured or DFA type players that no fan can really get behind as they change from year to year. When you have what is consistently voted among the best venues in baseball as well as in sports in general, it's criminal to not properly market that to the fan base. Compound that with the analytics that keep pushing the 3 true outcomes and you consistently get people like Joey Gallo batting 5th in your lineup. Why was it exciting to watch Nelson Cruz come up to bat or equally frustrating with Miguel Cabrera. Because they didn't care about the 3-run homerun. They just wanted the single to the other side to score that one run and keep the line moving. I wanted to address the comparison to Colorado. I do believe it is a reasonable comparison as there are plenty of things to do around Denver. Taking in games last year at Coors Field, I would agree that many of the attendees are transient. I would also argue that many of the fans at Target Field are transient as well. The game I attended this year was against St. Louis and it seemed like up to half the fans there were from St. Louis, even with the Correa jersey giveaway. The most attended games at Target Field seem to be against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Blue Jays and I don't believe it is because the locals all of a sudden decide to come out. I've heard from fans, especially Yankee fans, that it's cheaper to fly to MN and purchase the good club seats than it is to watch a game at Yankee Stadium. With Blue Jay fans, it's like they closed the city of Winnipeg, and all moved to the Cities for the weekend. Lastly, comparing to the Vikings. I've seen a lot of purple and gold hoodies with a Viking helmet that says: "This team makes me drink." I don't see that as much with Twins fans. My observation with the Vikings (thankfully not a fan of them, I can't handle that much negativity in my life😉) has been their performance on the field that has frustrated fans and not how they have not connected to the community or the team construction by the front office or ownership. I apologize for this being so long as there just seemed to be more to say as I fleshed out my thoughts. As a fan, I hope for a better next year and will continue to support them how I can.

You say outdueled. I say a pathetic offense that did nothing for him. Especially when it was apparent he d not have his best stuff tonight.

It’s a good thing we didn’t have anything to play for tomorrow. Kudos to Pablo for coming out for the 6th even though he was at 95 pitches. Let’s hurry up and get out of the game. Can Willi come in and pitch yet?

Idk what we have to do to get the ghost of Jamie Moyer put away his voodoo doll, but we should try it.

Exactly, we already have a below average utility person, WIlli Castro. On an unrelated topic, it was interesting how Cory P was surmising how some of the pitchers may be down after the work the last couple days. If you're not available for an elimination game, I don't want you on the team. And if the coaches/managers are shutting you down, they need to go as well.

This has been the culmination of a total failure of all parties from ownership to the FO to the manager and coaches to the players. It seems apparent that neither Rocco nor the coaches can reach the young players. In player interviews, I never hear of Pete Maki, Popkins, Rocco, or any other coach get praise for helping them out with something. It's been Pablo, Correa, Buxton, Santana that get the kudos from the younger players. Provided the FO will still be there in the offseason, there will need to be some changes. If you're not going to change manager or the staff, maybe they need to trade some players as it seems that the message being delivered is not getting through. I'm glad all these analytics guys don't believe in the RBI as a stat because neither do the players. Maybe Ron Washington is willing to leave LA for what is supposed to be a better team than what he has to manage in LA. He will at least teach fundamentals to the infield. My fear is that we have become a more expensive version of the White Sox. They had a lot of up-and-coming players and were supposed to be a juggernaut and within two years tied the record for the most losses in a season.

As much as I have wanted Rocco fired, I can’t blame him for this one. The players just didn’t get it done.

So what are they saving Topa for?

I have to say that takes talent to create new ways to run yourself out of an inning

Lewis wants to be the hero so damn bad he is making it worse.

Golden 5 gallon hat 🤷

Damn. I though that was going to be off the wall.

Who called for a pop up Jeffers?

Marlins pitcher is so wild he’s getting squeezed when he does throw a strike.

Walk off win! Let’s go!